Posted on 10/19/2011 2:40:04 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
Q. In the Old Testament, the terms "Israel," "Jacob," and "Jew" all seem to clearly be applied to the grandson of Abraham, the son of Isaac, the man Jacob and his physical descendants (Gen. 32:28; 35:10). But in the New Testament, the terms "Israel" and "Jew" are used in passages which are more difficult to understand which some interpret as teaching that faithful Gentiles are described as "Israel" or "true Jews" (e.g., Rom. 2:28-29; 9:4; Gal. 6:16). Can you shed some light on this?
A. I believe that much of the confusion concerning the use of the term “Israel” in the New Testament - and especially whether it refers to believing Gentiles - can be cleared away by recognizing that although, consistent with its use in the Old Testament, the term always denotes those who are physical descendants of the man Jacob, there are also passages where the writer desires to call attention to a subset from within the physical descendants of Jacob who also share the faith of father Abraham. Here are some principles to consider when reading such passages:
Who Is a True Jew?
A key distinction which must be kept in mind is to notice that the New Testament never refers to Gentile believers as the seed of Isaac or children of Jacob. Instead, “those who are of faith are sons of Abraham” (Gal 3:7-9,29). This is because we Gentiles who believe participate in the unconditional promise which God gave to Abraham, “In you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Gen. 12:3 cf. Gal. 3:8). The way in which the Gentiles participate in this promise is through their identification with Abraham’s descendant Jesus, having believed upon Him by faith. Instead of being sons of Isaac or sons of Jacob, our relationship as Gentiles to the New Covenant covenant goes back to its very source in the promises given to Abraham who is called the “father of all those who believe” (Rom. 4:11) - both believing Jews and believing Gentiles (Luke 19:9; Rom. 4:11-18). This is the root of the cultivated olive tree into which believing Gentiles have been grafted and unbelieving Jews have been cut off (Rom. 11:16-18). [2]
After warning the church of Philippi concerning unbelieving Jews, where Paul is emphasizing that true circumcision is of the heart, the most he will say is “we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh”. Thus Paul contrasts spiritual circumcision of the heart by faith with physical circumcision, an external rite which in and of itself does not produce saving faith. If there was ever a passage where Paul could clearly redefine Israel to mean believing Gentiles this is it, yet he does not go that far. Even here, Paul is not really teaching anything new because this theme is strongly taught within the Old Testament (e.g., Deu. 10:16; 30:6; Ps. 119:70; Jer. 4:4; 9:26; Eze. 36:26; 44:7).
I hope this helps to clarify the way in which the New Testament addresses the issue of physical descendants of Israel verses Gentiles who are children of Abraham by faith - but still Gentiles (Gal. 2:12,14; Eph. 3:6).
Endnotes:
[1] Concerning the believing remnant, see 1Ki 19:18; 2Ki 19:4; 2Ki 19:30; 2Ki 21:14; 2Ki 25:22; Ezr 9:8; Ezr 9:15; Isa 1:9; Isa 6:13; Isa 7:3; Isa 10:20-22; Isa 28:5; Isa 37:4; Isa 37:31-32; Isa 46:3; Isa 59:21; Isa 65:8; Jer 5:10; Jer 5:18; Jer 23:3; Jer 44:28; Jer 50:20; Eze 5:3; Eze 5:12; Eze 6:8-10; Eze 9:8; Eze 9:11; Eze 11:13-16; Eze 12:6; Eze 14:22; Joe 2:32; Mic 2:12; Mic 5:7-8; Mic 7:18; Zec 11:10; Zec 13:8-9; Ro 9:6; Ro 9:27; Ro 11:5; Ro 11:17; Ro 11:25; Ga 6:16; 1Pe 1:1; Re 12:17
[2] A common error in interpreting this passage is to mistake the cultivated olive tree with its root as denoting Israel such that believing Gentiles are joined to Israel. But the root concerns the promises made to Abraham as the father of the faithful. Also, unbelieving Jews who are called “Israel” in this passage are broken off from the tree with its root. Thus, the tree and its root cannot be Israel.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
When they quote scripture notice the cite is taken out of context to serve their own prideful rants. They have appointed themselves as the sole arbiter of the interpretation of scripture, a magisterium of one
They have a personal relationship with Jesus and you do too, as long as it is identical to their relationship.
I’ve been reading Giovanna Nicoletta’s posts for some time now. Another FReeper akerted me to her hateful ways over a year ago. I son’t have to reply to anyone on your command, nor, I remind you, are you in charge of my posting.
I have disliked her from the first time I read her posts. I have even more reason to dislike her now.
Now explain how you know my outrage if “feigned,” because that’s mind-reading, and against the rules. Just because I’ve never posted to GN before doesn’t mean I have no opinion about her or no reason for it.
I won’t recommend kindinss to you, it would be a waste of time.
What can I say, Judith Anne? Report me to the RM. Whatever you feel is necessary to remedy your situation.
I don’t care much what they do with the NT, but it’s going too far when they appoint themselves the arbiter of “Who is a True Jew.” That’s a matter of fact, not opinion, and evangelicals are not called upon to decide. None of their phony baloney “true Jews” could emigrate to Israel, for example. All the true Jews I know are highly suspicious of these pushy Christians’ notives.
Nope. I’ll let your conscience dictate your behavior. Wildly optimistic of me, I know.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
I think I’ll just leafe the thread. As a member of a family of Jews, I find this post deeply offensive, bordering on outright anti-Semitism.
That’s fine, but just for the record, it applies to everyone including the person who launched the first assault.
Got any specifics?
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19“If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. 20“Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also." (John 15:18-20)
We are going to get this visceral, enraged response from the world every time we prove that the word of God is inerrant, and infallible, and is applicable both to what is going on in the world today and to the fact that human beings are held accountable by God for what truth they were given and what they did with that truth.
“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:11, 12)
The only One we are responsible for pleasing is Jesus Christ, not men. And our Redeemer wants the truth of His Scripture told, whether people like or not and whether they hate us for it or not.
Thanks. “Self-serving” is right.
There are some of us on FR who agree with what you posted...That is except that Paul made a mistake, or was wrong...
We too look forward to the time that the Messiah will rule Israel in the Kingdom that was promised and guaranteed thru out the Old Testament...And some of us agree that salvation during that period will be based on good works, but we see that it's a combination of works and faith...
We see in the New Testament and believe that Jesus came to deliver the Jews...And had the Jewish nation not rejected Jesus, Jesus would have fulfilled all those things that you guys were looking for...
And as I am sure you have read, God chose to make you guys jealous and invited the Gentiles into His family...And when God is done with the Gentiles, he will again turn to his chosen people the Jews...And then, everything you have been looking for will be realized...
As far as faith is concerned, I agree that millions heard the voice of God...Faith was not required...But after that generation passed, it was the record of that witness, not the witness itself that brought people to God...It was faith...
Just as it is recorded that 500 people saw the risen Jesus Christ...That didn't require any faith either...But for those of us after, we have the written record and we have faith that it is true...
There are some of us on FR who agree with what you posted...That is except that Paul made a mistake, or was wrong...
We too look forward to the time that the Messiah will rule Israel in the Kingdom that was promised and guaranteed thru out the Old Testament...And some of us agree that salvation during that period will be based on good works, but we see that it's a combination of works and faith...
We see in the New Testament and believe that Jesus came to deliver the Jews...And had the Jewish nation not rejected Jesus, Jesus would have fulfilled all those things that you guys were looking for...
And as I am sure you have read, God chose to make you guys jealous and invited the Gentiles into His family...And when God is done with the Gentiles, he will again turn to his chosen people the Jews...And then, everything you have been looking for will be realized...
As far as faith is concerned, I agree that millions heard the voice of God...Faith was not required...But after that generation passed, it was the record of that witness, not the witness itself that brought people to God...It was faith...
Just as it is recorded that 500 people saw the risen Jesus Christ...That didn't require any faith either...But for those of us after, we have the written record and we have faith that it is true...
G-d disagrees with your characterization of those sacrificed.
Again the prophet Jeremiah 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Psalm 106: Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
They were not sinful. G-d calls them innocent. Jesus was also innocent. G-d forbids the shedding of innocent blood.
Furthermore, you call Jesus a spotless lamb. When a lamb was chosen for sacrifice, it was the outside appearance of the lamb that was spotless, not it's character or personality. And he was still a human being. Contrary to Christian teaching, when G-d stopped Abraham from sacrificing Issac, that was G-d telling him...dont touch him..you are never to engage in human sacrifice...here is a ram...use animals..not humans. And later, when G-d gave the law to Moses, that was codified. Animals of various types (And flour) were acceptable. Humans are not listed.
Bar abba: son of the father. I suspect he and Jesus were the same man.
Okay...thank you...dont know what I did but thanks...
As far as faith is concerned, I agree that millions heard the voice of God...Faith was not required...But after that generation passed, it was the record of that witness, not the witness itself that brought people to God...It was faith...
That's right....the point I was making was that when messiah comes, it will not take faith becasue it will be as before...millions of witnesses. It wont take a new testament to try to convince people that he was the guy.
Just as it is recorded that 500 people saw the risen Jesus Christ...That didn't require any faith either...But for those of us after, we have the written record and we have faith that it is true...
But you see, that is exactly where there is a problem. Not once in the OT is the messiah prophecied to be a resurrected personage. And being resurrected is not unique to Jesus. It occurred twice in the OT. And Lazarus was dead longer than Jesus. Resurrection is not on the checklist of criteria for messiah. None of Jesus miracles for that matter. No where in the OT does it say when messiah comes he will work great miracles of walking on water or turning water into wine. A a matter of fact, the bible warns against such people.
If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘(B)Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is (C)testing you to find out if (D)you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
See, even if the miracles happen...then he says worship in a way you have not known (Deut 13:6 whom neither you nor your fathers have known), he is to be rejected. So, when Christianity says G-d is a trinity and this was somehow taught by Jesus, this is something we have not known. That was never taught by Abraham or Moses or David. From the time the law was given untill Jesus. G-d has no form (Deut 4:12-15). G-d is one. (Deut 6:4)
Our fathers never taught a hybrid god-man savior nor a Trinity. So we MUST reject it. It is plainly stated in G-ds word.
I asked this question once a long time ago (I’m talking 15 years here), and no one I asked at the time could answer. Maybe you can.
Do you know, as far as the Messiah the Jews are waiting for, how will that Messiah be recognized? That is, what “checklist”, to use your word, is used to authenticate him? And where does this checklist come from? And do all Jews agree on the same “checklist”?
Thanks,
The Book of Romans teaches us “ all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”, so these people killed were sinners, but innocent in the sense they did nothing to deserve the death penalty. i am a sinner, but it would not be just in the eyes of humans for the state of nj to put me to death.
Excellent post, Iscool!
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