Posted on 10/10/2011 10:35:57 AM PDT by xzins
Kirsten Powers, Fox News commentator, opined recently that Mormonism does not disqualify Mitt Romney from the presidency. According to her, those who do not believe Mormonism and Christianity are the same are entitled to their view.
It is amazing that the lips of a liberal said such a thing. It is exactly on the mark. Those who believe Mormonism is not a part of classical, historic Christianity are absolutely entitled to their view.
Moreover, they are historically correct. Mormonism actually did not come on the scene until the early 1800's. It really did have a new leader, Joseph Smith, who was proclaimed a prophet by his followers. It honestly did develop its own set of books that are considered sacred scripture. It has its own pantheon of prophets, angels, doctrines, and practices that are singularly unique to its own heritage and to no other.
In short, Mormonism, with its redefined Jesus, is no more Christianity than Islam, with its redefined Jesus, is Christianity.
This is actually very simple to test. There is an individual by the name of Moroni in Mormonism. A word search of the scriptures of Christianity reveals no such name ever mentioned. It is the same with Lehi, Alma, Nephi, and a host of others. No such names appear at any place in the entirety of Christian scripture.
We could go into different doctrines that have been held over time by Mormons and some that have been discarded. None of them bear any resemblance to doctrines of Christianity. We could talk of the lack of doctrines, particularly the classic doctrine of the Trinity, that defines historic Christianity but is entirely absent from Mormonism.
Most striking, though, is the story of Jesus in North America. It is the story of a history long past in America, a history of vast American civilizations, of American battles, struggles, and the rise and fall of empires and peoples. These occurred hundreds and hundreds of years before Europeans set foot on North America.
None of this is hinted at in Christian revelation, so it is entirely new.
It is as new as an angel appearing to Mohammed in a cave and giving to that entirely new prophet a new scripture, a new story, and a new teaching.
Mormonism is a new religion. It is itself. It is not Christianity.
Clear, Concise and I think not perjorative just a simple case of logic.. A is A not B
bump
“like”
It is my impression that the public rhetoric of Mormons has been shifting. I do not know what they teach in their stake houses, but the young missionaries that ring my doorbell affirm that as Mormons they believe and Mormonism teaches exactly what I say as I state to them certain basic teachings about Christianity, such as the identity and personhood of Jesus of Nazareth, God’s only begotten son, the Messiah, his miraculous incarnation, et cetera.
Like Muslim’s and Takiya, Mormons tell outsiders what they want to hear.
But this quick summary of the differences between Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant) and Mormonism is indeed correct. And there’s much more, but the basic statement is correct.
A Christian cannot become a Mormon without converting.
I saw Chris Matthews on tv Friday berating Rick Santorum as to whether Mormonism “was Christian”. Unfortunately such a forum does not allow for any precise thinking.
The problem is, not even we Christians can agree on what is “Christian”. I am sure some of my protestant brethren on FR would not consider me “Christian” since I am a convert to Catholicism and do not adhere to sola fide or sola scriptura.
If you define it in the broadest terms, as one who sincerely tries to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, then I guess Mormons would qualify, which was more or less what Santirum said, though it was in the form of deference to the LDS as to whether they were Christians.
Had I been in Santorum’s shoes, I would have asked Matthews if belief in a triune God was necessary to Christianity; if not then they could certainly be called Christians, otherwise no.
Since there is no such thing as Jesus in America and vast civilizations in America, then historic Christianity would be insane to include in its number that which is obviously not factual.
Trinitarianism is the keystone of Christian doctrine in many ways. Mormonism lacks it. And they certainly do. I listened to an official spokesman for Mormonism on Fox News say exactly that: Mormons do NOT believe in classic trinitarianism. He said it. I didn’t.
Neat Summary Bookmark.
I’m sure Chris Matthews will agree that he works for Fox News.
After all, they both report the news.
God Is.
As far as Romney, its not his Religion, it's his politics that I look at when deciding if I want to vote for him.
Do they state their belief before you do, or do they say they agree with your beliefs after you state them first?
There is an excellent book that I have by Walter Martin named “Kingdom of the Cults”. In it, he defines a cult as a religion that claims to be Christian, yet denies one or more major tenet of Christianity.
Mormons deny the Trinity. That qualifies them as a cult. When Mormons come to my door, we don’t debate. I simply state “I believe in a monotheism, you believe in a polytheism.” They say “Yes ma’am, have a nice day.” and walk off.
“Since there is no such thing as Jesus in America,,,,,,historic Christianity would be insane to include in its number that which is obviously not factual”
True, and i agree that it would be very odd to count them in with traditional Christianity. BUT,, every Catholic i know says that in 1531, Mary herself met with an Indian named Juan Diego near Mexico City and told him that Mexicans should all be Catholic. Thats about the same thing,,,Just sayin,,,
Apples and oranges. The small minority of protestants who claim Catholics are "not Christian" (and note I said there is a very small group... the vast majority of Protestants would agree Catholics are Chrisitans) are simply basing arguments on personal prejudice. Their argument falls apart when you look at history because if it's true that Catholics "aren't Christian", then Christainity didn't exist until 1600 years after Christ when their brand of protestantism was developed. Indeed, instead of 2 billion Christians in the world, their interpretation of "Christianity" would mean there's probably less than 50 million "Christians" on the whole planet, and great centers of Christianity that were developed by the first apostles and have stood for 2000 years, like Greece and Rome, are "not Christian" in their eyes. Basically we're all going to hell if we don't accept the teachings of their denomination.
Mormonism is different. It didn't exist until the 1800s and developed entirely in America. Its doctrines are vastly different from historic Christianity shared by Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox denominations that otherwise have very little in common. Thus, all the major Christian churches in the world do not accept Mormonism as a Christian denomination. It is a radical departure from accepted Christianity during the 1800 years Christianity existed. One could argue that it's simply a very different "new denomination" of Christianity, but that's like how Christianity was seen as a radically different, "new denomination" of Judiasm for the first 70 years of Christianity. It wasn't a new denomination, it was a new religion based on ideas from the previous religion, but went in an entirely new direction and broke ties with the old religion. The same is true with Mormonism. This shouldn't imply that Mormons are bad people are all going to hell because they're "not Christian", in fact, alot of Mormons are much devout and lead "Christ-like" lives than many praticing Christians. But the religion itself is not Christian, and vastly different Christian communities like Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists agree on that point.
>> If you define it in the broadest terms, as one who sincerely tries to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, then I guess Mormons would qualify <<
The problem is that if you define "Christian" in those terms, then many other faiths could be counted as "Christian" including many Muslims, Hindus, Ba'hai, deist, etc., followers, because many of those adherents will tell you they sincerely try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (even if they don't believe Christ was divine and their interpretation of Jesus is quite different from what Chrisitan churches believe)
>> I saw Chris Matthews on tv Friday berating Rick Santorum as to whether Mormonism “was Christian”. Had I been in Santorum’s shoes, I would have asked Matthews if belief in a triune God was necessary to Christianity; if not then they could certainly be called Christians, otherwise no. which was more or less what Santirum said, though it was in the form of deference to the LDS as to whether they were Christians. <<
It was pretty much a lose-lose scenario and Matthews knows that, asking whether Santorum thinks Mormons are Christian is like asking him if he stopped beating his wife. If Santorum points out they don't share the beliefs of most Christians, the media would take the clip out of the context to make it look like Santorum is bashing Mormons. Heck, even some freepers joined the media in claiming Huckabee was an "anti-Mormon bigot!!!" when he (correctly) asked whether Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were "brothers" (Mormon doctrine teachings that both were children of God the Father but that Satan was the black sheep of the family and disowned or whatever)
Basically if I had been in Santorum's shoes I would have probably given an indirect answer as well, and just pointed out that many Mormons uphold Christian virtues and that I get along with them well.
As I noted on another thread today, the simplest way around this one is for politicians to simply acknowledge what I do... that my personal belief about the person's faith is irrelevant because I don't judge a person's qualifications for office on whether or not they're a praticing Christian. I would much rather vote for a solidly conservative Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Jew, etc. than I would a socialist who professes to be a devout "Christian"
I'd add another point, as I mentioned Matthews was going for a "have you stopped beating your wife?" line of attack. The liberal media loves to portray conservatives as intolerant bigots. If Santorum had tried your scenario, I think the exchange would have went something like this:
MATTHEWS
Do you believe Mormons are Christian, Senator?
SANTORUM
It's hard to say because there's different ways people define Christian. Are you going by the premise that Christianity means a belief in the trinity?
MATTHEWS
That's what your church, the Roman Catholic Church teaches, correct?
SANTORUM
Yes. I believe in the trinity.
MATTHEWS
So politicians who do not profess a belief in the trinity aren't Christian in your eyes?
SANTORUM
Well, I didn't say --
MATTHEWS
But that's what your church believes, how it defines Christianity, and you claim obidenence to the Catholic church.
SANTORUM
I do.
MATTHEWS
Are Quakers Christians?
SANTORUM
I thought we were discussing Mormons.
MATTHEWS
We were discussing a belief in the trinity. Quakers do not believe in the the doctrine of the trinity. So your faith tells you that they are not Christians, correct?
SANTORUM
I suppose...
MATTHEWS
And you also believe Seventh Day Adventists are not Christians. In fact, you would say the Christian Science faith founded by Mary Baker Eddy isn't Christian, even though that's the name of the church.
SANTORUM
Are we done yet?
Mormons want Christians to consider Mormons to be fellow Christians. But they do, Mormons will never return the favor.
Hooah!
Hooah!
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