Question for OPC members (who post on the Religion Forum): how does this work, exactly? (vanity)

9/26/11

[markomalley]

2 or 3 times a week, I go past this church on the way home from work:

No big deal, never paid it much attention.

A couple of days ago, I noticed a slight change on the frontage of their property:

This sort of surprised me a bit.

I didn't, based upon the back and forth here, think that the OPC did "charismatic" things.

This understanding was confirmed by looking at the OPC website (here). Saying, We believe that the "charismata" (those first introduced at Pentecost and further dealt with in 1 Corinthians 12-14) have ceased with the end of the apostolic age. In fact, they identify beliefs that endorse charismatic gifts as "unbiblical" (pretty strong words...)

---

So it got me wondering. I could never picture an OPC Congregation renting out their church to a Catholic parish, a Lutheran parish, or an LDS group...Nor would it be reasonable to do so, as it would tend to lend some credence to the beliefs and/or practices of those groups.

So why a Pentecostal group? And a Hispanic Pentecostal group, to boot?

I realize that it is highly unlikely that any of the OPC FReepers who post on the RF are members of this congregation, so I'm not making some kind of an accusation. I'm just honestly curious. The OPC (and other reformed) FReepers who post on the RF seem to be pretty rigid with their beliefs. Renting out a church to a group who has "unbiblical" beliefs / practices like Pentecostals makes about as sense as renting out the church hall for a lesbian wedding.

So is this something that is normal / commonplace with OPC congregations or is this just an outlier?

I am not asking to mock, I'm just curious. Definitely not something I'd expect to see.

[Natural Law]

"The Scriptures of the NT does not identify a profession such as "clergy"."

Right, up is down, black is white, left is right and "pastors in need of salaries" are not clergy. No wonder those little store front OPC operations are evaporating.

[LearnsFromMistakes]

Every thread in the open Religion Forum, given enough time becomes an anti-Catholic thread

I have since detected some,ah, latent animosities...I have no idea who drew first blood, nor where these all-too-often battles end. I will get out of your way.

[Natural Law]

"I have since detected some,ah, latent animosities..."

Just check out post #18 and you can see what I am talking about.

[TIElniff]

Here’s a guess in an attempt to answer your question: There are differences between denominations that are “tolerable” and others that are “not tolerable”. If a group believes in the Triune God, the Incarnation (that Jesus was God in the flesh), and the Bible as the only authoritative Word from God, then they are “tolerable) as to their practices like Pentecostalism, Baptism, etc., etc., even though the host group doesn’t agree with those practices.

But if they don’t hold to the above fundamentals, then they are “not tolerable”. That rules out certain cults and other heretical groups. That is why the church may rent out to Pentecostals, but not to LDS groups, Catholics, etc.

[TIElniff]

Here’s a guess in an attempt to answer your question: There are differences between denominations that are “tolerable” and others that are “not tolerable”. If a group believes in the Triune God, the Incarnation (that Jesus was God in the flesh), and the Bible as the only authoritative Word from God, then they are “tolerable) as to their practices like Pentecostalism, Baptism, etc., etc., even though the host group doesn’t agree with those practices.

But if they don’t hold to the above fundamentals, then they are “not tolerable”. That rules out certain cults and other heretical groups. That is why the church may rent out to Pentecostals, but not to LDS groups, Catholics, etc.

[markomalley]

Here’s a guess in an attempt to answer your question: There are differences between denominations that are “tolerable” and others that are “not tolerable”. If a group believes in the Triune God, the Incarnation (that Jesus was God in the flesh), and the Bible as the only authoritative Word from God, then they are “tolerable) as to their practices like Pentecostalism, Baptism, etc., etc., even though the host group doesn’t agree with those practices.

I was thinking something along those lines, as well.

Just was surprised at the breadth of the bandwidth of "tolerable" in this instance.

[LearnsFromMistakes]

Just check out post #18 and you can see what I am talking about.

When I saw post 10 (before 18), I figured something was up. That is why I made my original comment.

I see the 'everybody picks on me' or 'my group has it worst' comments all the time. Most of the time, it keeps me off these threads. But this one was interesting. I know my church building has been used by groups (like local 'F'EMA) and other churches for short-time weekly meetings (others flooded-out or new churches just starting) or one-time special events (concerts & convention-type events that the host church isn't large enough to hold). So I was interested in the thread, and others opinions. Too bad the thread had to fall apart.

[Dutchboy88]

Well, Rome’s cultish little guys wearing bathrobes and Shriner helmets (obsessed with superstitious ceremonial chanting and blowing smoke/swingng bells/throwing water) make errors by the OPC look insignificant.

I too hope that OPC “operations” evaporate, the same way that the bogus Roman travesty has become apparent to real believers. The truthful doctrines that belong to Christ (and were taught by some in the OPC) will never disappear, in spite of Rome’s attempt to suppress them.

What happened to your argument about “vows of poverty”?

[Salvation]

I happened upon that last Christmas when delivering flyers for a free Christmas meal to food bank locations.

At a Jason Lee Methodist Church

there was also a Hispanice Mennonite Church renting space

And a Slavic Baptist Church renting space.

Blew me away — but then I was there on the day the tornado touched down in Oregon last December! LOL!

Those names were astounding to me at a Methodist Church location.

[Natural Law]

"Well, Rome’s cultish little guys wearing bathrobes and Shriner helmets (obsessed with superstitious ceremonial chanting and blowing smoke/swingng bells/throwing water) make errors by the OPC look insignificant."

There is nothing in the Catholic liturgy that is not completely Scriptural so you can forget that little rant.

You guys all remind me of the little man syndrome, like an unknown candidate trying to a public fight with an incumbent simply to get noticed. Your participation on these threads is disproportionate with your actual numbers. Even the most strident fake doctors are no longer able to keep up the facade. Now run along and play nice.

(I know how the Urban Dictionary defines "Dutchboy". Is there something you would like to tell us?)

[steve86]

I'm more curious about the hieroglyphics below the sign

Before seeing the answer in the thread, I assumed that's what speaking in tongues looks like in print.

[proe]

Presbyterianism was founded by John Knox, the known author of "Blast of Trumpet Against the Mainstream Regiment of Women". Would it then follow that Knox would have approved of the ordination of Gay pastors or perhaps gay female pastors? This issue seems to be a " Burning in the bosom" one for Presbyterians or is that the LDS?

There are so many christian denominations that it is difficult to keep score about which issues are important to each group.

[Dutchboy88]

Unless Rome has debased itself further, I don't believe ad hominem is part of their theology. And, you may want to read your posts after your fingers stop shaking... "...like an unknown candidate trying to a public fight with an incumbent..."

Huh?

[Outlaw Woman]

*snicker*

[Natural Law]

"Presbyterianism was founded by John Knox, the known author of "Blast of Trumpet Against the Mainstream Regiment of Women".

Like many so-called Reformers in the orbit of Henry VIII, Knox was more concerned with earthly kingdoms than heavenly ones.

[aruanan]

What's so surprising to me, though, is for any church (particularly, considering how they act around here, an OPC church) to rent out to a group whose beliefs are so "radically" opposed to the owning congregation's stated beliefs.

Hey, if God is controlling everything about everything, then presumably he's directing the other church groups there to rent space. Of course, whether the space is rented or the folks are turned away could both be called an outworking of God's will.

[Alex Murphy]

I realize that it is highly unlikely that any of the OPC FReepers who post on the RF are members of this congregation, so I'm not making some kind of an accusation. I'm just honestly curious. The OPC (and other reformed) FReepers who post on the RF seem to be pretty rigid with their beliefs. Renting out a church to a group who has "unbiblical" beliefs / practices like Pentecostals makes about as sense as renting out the church hall for a lesbian wedding.

I find it amusing that it was Calvinists and Presbyterians who came up with the "Five Fundamentals" (where the pejorative "fundamentalist" comes from) as an ecumenical tool to find common ground with Christians of all persuasions (including Catholics and Pentecostals). Every church and Christian has "unbiblical" beliefs to a lesser or greater extent, at some point in their life. The five fundamentals establish a common foundation as to which beliefs matter most, i.e. are non-negotiable. So long as the Pentecostal congregation in question agreed with the five fundamentals, I see no reason why the OPC congregation in question wouldn't be willing to rent space to them.

That said, it's the Catholic Church, not the Presbyterians, that makes theology an "all or nothing" issue. Case in point:

"....If a Catholic rejects even one tenet of Church teaching then they are as a result declaring that the Church is not a holy institution and more importantly the Church’s belief in truth is wrong....Catholicism has a monopoly on the truth, it is not good enough to only believe in some of the Church’s teachings, we have to and are logically required to believe in all of the Church’s teachings."
-- from the thread What Is The Catholic Truth?

In this mindset, to be a "real" Christian is to be Catholic. And to not be Catholic is to be a member of an "ecclesial community" (Protestants), a member of a "defective church" (Orthodox), or not be a Christian at all. The mindset of Catholicism towards any corporate exercise of Christianity is exclusivist by design. People are either (already) Catholic, or are "generally hellbound" as one FReeper put it to me.

So for someone inside the Catholic mindset, when they look upon Protestant denominations, they project and think that a Protestant denomination must be exclusivist towards any other denomination. They think that Protestants exclude all denominations/members not their own from the full body of Christ and from Heaven, because that's how the Catholic mindset approaches all others. While there are some "Protestant" congregations and denominations (I'm using those terms loosely) may act that way towards outsiders, the majority do not (and the creedal ones IMO less so).

I'm guessing it's this Catholic mindset re exclusivism that's giving you trouble in understanding how an OPC church can share it's space with a Pentecostal one.

[ReformationFan]

“So it got me wondering. I could never picture an OPC Congregation renting out their church to a Catholic parish, a Lutheran parish, or an LDS group...Nor would it be reasonable to do so, as it would tend to lend some credence to the beliefs and/or practices of those groups.”

Of those groups you mentioned, I would agree on all except Lutherans. If it were an orthodox, Bible believing Lutheran congregation of the LCMS or WELS type(definitely NOT an ELCA congregation), I don’t see why an OPC church would have a problem with renting to them.

[Cronos]

Interesting observation. Perhaps they are now ecumenical?

[Cronos]

but, was that OPC or the PCUSA?