Why no, Ma'am: we are NOT afraid of snakes!
Posted on 09/15/2011 6:02:54 PM PDT by Graybeard58
There are basically two ways Christians witness to Mormons. One is to demolish Mormonism in an apologetic way, the other is to expose Mormonism in a theological way. The former deals with Mormon history, false prophecies, archaeology, DNA, etc. The latter deals with sin, repentance, atonement, the gospel, etc. Most people take the first approach, but we, the Oasis ministry in Utah, take the second.
The first may make many ex-Mormons, but it doesn't necessarily make believers. Actually, it can be counterproductive. Once Mormons realize Mormonism is false they typically move into atheism because it is almost impossible for them to disassociate their knowledge of God, the Bible and Jesus from their Mormon worldview. They are so wounded from having been lied to that they hesitate to trust any religious consideration afterward and default into heavy skepticism. Also, destroying the historical foundations of Mormonism isn't preaching the gospel.
The message we are called to preach is the same message for all people whether they are Mormon or not: we are called to preach Christ crucified, the only salvation for sinners. Apologetics are certainly useful in destroying people’s confidence in Mormonism as a valid historical religion, but the most important thing is that Mormons come to place their confidence in Jesus Christ as the only sufficient Savior from their sins.
Often, these two goals conflict with each other. Therefore, the approach we believe is the best way to witness to Mormons is the theological approach: to elucidate the Biblical message of sin, righteousness and faith by challenging Mormonism on its own theological ground. People do not need correct Christian doctrine to realize that they are sinners… they need it to solve that problem!
Walking Mormons through their own doctrinal system to its logical conclusions will show to the Mormons that they are sinners, and will reveal to them the impossibility of being justified before God by their works, opening the door to share with them the true gospel of grace. Besides all this, the first approach almost always leads to an argument where the Mormon feels persecuted and attacked, making the wall go up even more.
Probing Mormonism theologically forces the Mormon to dig deep for real answers. No petty arguments will satisfy difficult theological problems within their own "gospel". As they dig, they discover, not only that they have no answers, but also that their spiritual condition is much worse than they thought. Few Mormons have ever thought deeply through their own theology, as their religion wisely discourages. In a friendly way, we seek to give them the opportunity.
The means we use to go about doing this is the Socratic method: asking questions. Mormons love talking about their religion... they want to evangelize you! So let them! Ask them what their message is... why is there a gospel... what is the problem that the gospel addresses... etc… etc… etc. As they respond, think of related questions to ask that will help them reflect upon their answers. Don’t worry if you aren’t very good at this at first.
Using the Socratic method will become more natural as you practice talking with Mormons on a regular basis. As well, we shouldn’t need to have a pre-packaged cookiecutter conversation with them, because that is what they do. Mormons are trained to speak the same things as if from a script, but we should come in the opposite spirit, as Jesus taught His disciples (Luke 21:14-15). We don't have to be experts on Mormonism, but we should be experts on the gospel. If we grasp the basic concepts of the gospel and rely on the Spirit for words, we’ll be able to witness to any person from any religion at any time. We don't need to worry about every question or word to be planned. This allows for each conversation to be unique.
There must be a direction and a goal to which this questioning ultimately leads. The point, or goal, when using the Socratic method on Mormonism’s theological system, is to bring the Mormon to the place of seeing that Mormonism’s plan of salvation does not save him.
The place of ultimate tension surrounds the atonement: this will be the climax of the conversation and it is here that the heart of the spiritual battle will be waged. Mormons acknowledge that Jesus made atonement for our sins so that we could be forgiven in order to return to God. It is not necessary to address all the weird doctrines they hold (like the nature of God or that they believe the atonement was made in the Garden of Gethsemane) because the point is to show them how Mormonism itself, in all its weirdness, does not save. We will get to those things eventually, but for now it does not serve our purpose to go into them, and will likely only hinder our objective.
When I am witnessing to Mormons, if they make a remark about some weird point of doctrine, I usually just say nothing, neither affirmative nor negative, but move on with the goal of the conversation.
The one great question is: “How does a person receive the atonement?” Since a person’s eternal destiny hangs upon this one question, then the answer is of infinite importance. It is at this point that Mormonism fails.
When it all boils down, Mormon doctrine teaches that a person must utterly forsake all of his or her sins in order to receive the atonement. This, of course, is impossible. Their primary manual, Gospel Principles, reads: “We accept Christ’s atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all the commandments. In this way we are cleansed from sin and become worthy to return and live forever with our Heavenly Father… Christ did his part to atone for our sins.
Each of us must repent and obey to make Christ’s atonement effective in our lives.” (Gospel Principles, p. 50-51, 1978) According to Mormonism, the forgiveness of sins is not a free gift purchased by Christ for the individual, but something that the individual must earn through personal worthiness by obedience to the commandments of God.
In Contrast, the Bible teaches that eternal life is the free gift of God for sinful men. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9) This vital disparity between grace and works is the main point of contrast and conflict between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism and it is this that must be addressed.
It is not necessary to discuss baptism or receiving the Holy Ghost (even though Mormons may wish to get sidetracked on these or other like issues) because according to Mormonism repentance must first precede all things. A person must be worthy to even be baptized: “All those who have truly repented of all their sins shall be received by baptism into his church.” (D&C 20:37) Nothing comes for nothing in Mormonism. Even “faith” is described as: “having such trust in Christ that we obey whatever he commands.” (Gospel Principles, p. 118) In Mormonism, the individual’s worthiness through works is clearly the entire matter.
If Mormonism were true, that we “accept Christ’s atonement by repenting of our sins…”, then two obvious questions arise out of this “gospel”: 1) what is repentance? And 2) how good do I have to be to be worthy enough to receive the atonement? As we dig, we shall see how patently impossible it is for Mormonism to save anybody.
One must only look to the official church manuals in order to get into the Mormon mindset and understand how they define their terms. This paragraph from the chapter entitled “Repentance” in Gospel Principles, which includes a quote from the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, gives us the explanation: “It does little good to admit that we have sinned if we do not stop doing the evil thing. If we truly repent of our sins, we will do them no more.
If a person has stolen, he will steal no more. If he has lied, he will lie no more. If he committed adultery, he will stop this evil practice. The Lord said to the Prophet Joseph Smith: “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins – behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” (Gospel Principles, p. 91, 1978)
Spencer Kimball, the late President of the Mormon Church stated: “There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin… the saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life… nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin… to ‘try’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can.” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 163-165)
The Mormon definition of repentance is to actually and permanently forsake one’s sin. Therefore, according to their own doctrine, in order for a Mormon to accept the atonement and receive the forgiveness of sins, he or she must completely come to an end of sinning and keep the commandments of God. It's very simple: If you don't repent of your sins, you don't receive the atonement. There is no “try”.
The devastating blow that eliminates all the Mormon’s excuses for not doing so (and there will be excuses) comes from one of the most cardinal doctrines of their theological system. That is: that God never gives a command that we cannot keep, no matter how difficult or how great. “For I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” (1 Nephi 3:7)
Therefore, when God commands us to “deny ourselves of all ungodliness” (Moroni 10:32) and to “repent of all our sin” (Helaman 14:13), we are well able to do it. If we don't do it, we are to blame, not God. There is no legitimate reason why a person does not keep all the commandments all the time in Mormonism.
Some Mormons are right now struggling intensely with this very problem. Many others have never connected the dots and still think that as long as they just “try their best” they will be fine. They have conveniently forgotten that to the God of Mormonism, a person’s best is perfection. By asking the right questions and by helping them connect the dots, they will be forced to admit that they have no excuse for their willful rebellion (the Biblical answer as to why men do not obey the commandments).
The Mormon “gospel” is a hopeless hamster wheel: All have sinned and so the atonement was given. However, to get the atonement we must not sin. Therefore no person, past, present or future, has, or will ever have, the atonement. Wasn’t the atonement given because we couldn’t keep the commandments? Why then would the condition be to receive the atonement, ‘Keep the commandments’? We had already proven that that was impossible! Thus it is that Mormonism does not save. “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:21)
At this point, those whose consciences are sensitive will be distraught by their sin. Others, whose consciences are less sensitive, may become uneasy and bear to you their testimony. Mormons are under intense pressure to earn God’s grace, so the realization that they have not succeeded in securing it can often be very troubling. As the Bible teaches, the commandments were given by God to overwhelm the sinner so that he would despair of all hope in his own self and in his own works, constraining him to flee to Christ that he might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24).
This is what we are seeking to do, using the law, Mormon style. Many have sought to alleviate that pressure by lowering the standard to a safe artificial level, but as instruments in the Redeemer’s hands we are to raise that standard to its true and terrifying place and lay the pressure on.
Our temptation will be to hold back and not make people uncomfortable over their sin (a false concern for man), but in reality the most caring thing that we can possibly do for people is to speak the truth in love, even when it isn’t popular (a true concern for man).
A doctor must first tell his patients the bad news before he will be able to convince them to submit to his treatments. The Mormon’s eternal soul is at stake, and he does not know that he is perishing. Therefore we must, for love’s sake, be willing to make him uncomfortable that he might be brought to Jesus Christ for salvation.
Once he sees the futility of his own theology, and he asks, “Well, how do you get the atonement?!”, then the door will be open for you to share the true gospel of the grace of God with him and you'll have quite a “sponge” of an audience. This is the place to declare the truth clearly and cuttingly, proclaiming the difference between Mormon and Christian salvation. They need to hear the real good news. Truly, Mormons are dying for want of grace.
As for your demeanor when you speak with them, be sensitive, meek and kind, for they expect that all non-Mormons, especially Christians, are out to persecute them. You will thoroughly bewilder them if you drive the sword of truth into their conscience with meekness.
It is very easy to get frustrated with Mormons because they are so blind and cannot see the blatantly obvious, but if you picture them in your mind to be wearing dark glasses and holding in their hands white canes, it will help you to not become frustrated but rather will move you to compassion. Nearly all Mormons were born into the lie and have been conditioned to believe it from their childhood, knowing nothing else.
Being open and honest about your sins is as refreshing as cold water to Mormons, for theirs is a culture of extreme hypocrisy and judgmentalism. This is because they are anxiously striving to look good before men and to appear to all that they are keeping the commandments (after all, that is how they believe they are right with God).
If you are real with them and honest about your own sins, it will help them be real with you and honest about their sins… a thing most rare. If you aren’t real, Mormons can spot a hypocrite a mile away! (It takes one to know one, right?)
Nor should you be discouraged when it looks as if a conversation has been in vain. Mormons are very good at hiding their true feelings and you never know when the Spirit of God is convicting and drawing an individual to Himself. There are so many stories of people who have been brought to Christ while all along the Christians who had witnessed to them had no idea that their words were making any difference. Therefore, never give up!
These are the principles that we have found to be the most effective when sharing the gospel with Mormons. It’s a theological approach which uses the Socratic method to show the impossibility of Mormonism, opening the door to share the true gospel of grace.
Unlike the apologetic approach, this approach bypasses the pitfalls of atheism, almost always prevents them from feeling persecuted, and is thoroughly based upon the message of Christ crucified. The principles shown here extend far beyond Mormonism, for Mormonism is just one branch on the tree of self-righteousness. As stated before, we don’t need to be experts on Mormonism, but we should be experts on the gospel.
Now if you want to actually contribute to the discussion grab some facts and evidence and join us...
Please point put mormon bashing?
I don’t know what you are talking about.
Its a statement of fact Sandy, pure and simple. Mormonism is NOT the pathway to the father. there is only one of those.
If that is seen as “condemning to hell” of any individual perhaps it is that individual who may want to investigate why it bothers them so...
When was it that Christ stopped talking to His bride?
People who go to hell go there on their own accord.
If just being “good” were enough, there would have been no need for the Cross.
When you say the Christ showed Himself to Smith which version are you speaking of the 1st, the 2nd or possibly the 14th?
An oft repeated myth.
"Christ himself uttered these words during the First Vision “... and all of their Creeds are an abomination to me ....”
JS wrote the First Vision® ambiguously enough to permit others to come to that conclusion.
The narrative (1st vision, [pick a version]) is ambiguous, it does not clearly state that God and Jesus, came down, nor does he claim to have heard the name of Jesus, just "this is my beloved son..." (That IS NOT "confessing" Jesus). It's implied through the use of descriptive language. But at no time does the personage (spirit) state absolutely that it was Jesus who was going to "speak" to JS. It's an assumption on the part of mormons to believe that Christ spoke to him. JS never recorded that he was speaking to God or that Jesus was speaking to him.
The use of the word "Personages" is in no way an adequate description of God and Jesus, I don't care how you try to spin that.
1 John:
4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
4:4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
4:5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.
4:6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
First off, the warning about testing the spirits and the fact those false prophets would be known by their worldliness. Well, JS was quite worldly. He was a lecher, a thief, a con-man, etc. Many of the things JS did while he was the "prophet" were the behaviors that are in direct contradiction of a Godly man. There were a lot of "convenient" "revelations" that "permitted" him a great deal of latitude.
Secondly, the "personages" description and the failure of the spirits to clearly identify and confess Jesus during the purported 1st vision.
Wishing something to be true doesn't make it true.
The mormons HAVE to believe JS was telling the truth or the whole, vile, scam comes crashing down around their heads. The Bible stands on its own, the BoM not so. The D&C, nothing but a collection of heresies and blasphemies.
I thank my Heavenly Father, His Son Jesus Christ (my Savior), and the Holy Ghost that my “eternal soul” is not in your puny hands.
That is your response to my post? Wow
I concluded with this statement: The Biblical Jesus loves you and does not want you to spend eternity away from Him. Rejoice, Sandy He is calling you.
Careful, Saundra, you’re not being perfect, you’re not earning the atonement.
Peepstone prophet popcorn placemarker.
It's a REALLY good place to start!
So what if they turn to atheism?
They are in no worse shape than before!
When your house gets washed away, you think about building the next one on a BETTER foundation!
Matthew 7:24-27
Hiss!
Got some MORMON archeology you'd like to show us?
Why no, Ma'am: we are NOT afraid of snakes!
You DO?
Why?
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHICHAPTER 224 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
Or even HERE:
1 Timothy 3:2-3
2. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.1 Timothy 3:12
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.Titus 1:6
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTSSECTION 13251–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
Sandy is back and feeling rather smug
Glenn beck went to Israel and got up in Jerusalem and “proclaimed” “I am a jew”
Well anyone knowing mormonism knows that although that is a copycat of what JFK said “I am a Berliner”
Unlike Kennedy, Beck was not just identifying with the people of Israel...
Beck was saying “Im a jew. You are not a Jew. You lot are just all gentiles. I am a REAL jew.”
“GET BACK. I HAVE ARRIVED...”
The mormons claim that they will be the ones who build the temple in jerusalem...
However they tend to forget that that endtime temple is going to be DESTROYED
Oh noez
Well the mormons gave the mayor of jerusalem $1 Million and tried to get him to let them build right on the slopes of the Mount of Olives...
THe mayor said “No”
Oh noez
The Mormons are desparate to get a mormon into the Whote House so they can be in control over America and be self fulfilling in their white horse prophecy by so called “saving the Constitution”
However no matter what happens politically, it wont be part of the Kingdom of God...
The Kingdom of God is Spiritual, ...God is Spirit...
while mans plans and laws are damnable things that will be destroyed when the LORD Jesus comes for His Bride the Church...
The Mormons claim that the LORD Jesus is coming back to their jerusalem in Independance, Missouri...
and that the mormons will rule over the world with Him
But the LORD Jesus Christ told us that His kingdom is not of this world or built with hands...
It pays to read the Bible...
When God came and died on the Cross to save us with His substitional Blood and was made a curse in our place, He planned to take us to His kingdom in Heaven to live there with Him for eternity...
The Mormons are so messed up and confused they have themselves living on their own planet while they are here on Earth “ruling and reigning” at the same time...
They will be with their families but will be on separate planets as either sheiks or concubines while again they will be visiting from floor to floor in a big apartment building warehouse for mormon “spirits”
The top pentehouses will be residences for those entitled to a life of carnality and luxury with “gentile” slaves ...
(Who are the “gentiles” ???
All the Jews living in Israel and around the world...
All non-mormons, Christians included...)
Can you imagine a Jew being identified as a “gentile” ???
Is it any wonder that the Jews blew shofars and booed Beck the first time he went to Israel ???
Is it any wonder only men who dont know God or the Bible or those deceived are standing with Beck on Israel or politics and US history ???
Is it any wonder that Beck cried with his crocidile tears in Israel and complained when some faithful loving Christians used the oppotunity that the Holy Spirit gave them to witness the true Gospel to him...
But he reject them...and the LORD Jesus Christ...
But they wont lose their reward...
They obeyed God...seized the moment ...walked through the door God opened for them and preached the Gospel...
and those mormon missionaries/storm troopers that went to Israel with Beck didnt stop them..LOL
God was pleased with them...
The devil was so mad that they had told Beck about Jesus and that he was in error and sin and in need of the Savior...
The devil had Beck mock and announce his hatred for the Words that were told him by crying and accusing on his show in Jerusalem...
Would we have known that some sweet Christians had got to tell beck the truth if the devil hadnt played his hand and told ???
God bless those bold as a lion Christians for obeying God anhd preaching to the lost Glenn Beck...
Glenn Beck is preaching a lost cause and unfortunately a lot of people are following him because they dont know the Bible...
As Resty would say: BIAS
MORMONs sure miss the Good Ol' Days on FR; when they could spout with impunity...
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