Posted on 07/08/2011 1:44:03 PM PDT by Colofornian
...David Hyrum Smith...youngest son of...LDS prophet, Joseph Smith...returned to a mission to Utah...Reorganized church prophet, Joseph Smith III, who the letter was addressed to, must have regretted extending the call, writes Valerie Tippetts Avery, author of “From Mission to Madness: Last Son of the Mormon Prophet...” To young David...the mission...served to convince himself...that he had spent years angrily refuting — that his father...preached and practiced polygamy.
...David...Smith took his...skepticism...further, arguing against...dogma that man can only seek important further knowledge from a selected prophet. This doubt struck at a key doctrine of both churches. He wrote: “If faith unto salvation was an eternal principle and true, it could be discovered and demonstrated so as to be of general benefit as the law of gravitation or the rules of mathematics. But as it comes to us it makes us subservient to our falable (sic) fellow Man for eternal life, a most absurd proposition. But you again might speak God has revealed himself. But here again is an absurdity our fellow man brings us a revelation, and we are only guided by our faith in him. We do not know he has had this revelation and eternal salvation depends upon our faith in our fellow man and his revelation. Unjust and absurd.”
...David Smith...pointed out the inconsistency of ascribing belief based on one man’s claim of divine prophecy. For every Joseph Smith, he told his brother, there were Brigham Young, “Spiritualists” and Strangites” (an offshoot of Mormonism).
Young Smith’s ideas could be dismissed as heresy...by rigid believers...Any follower of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints…should acknowledge... inconsistencies demanded…which are:
• ...belief is required without presentable evidence...
• ...for every claim of a Joseph Smith or a Thomas Monson, there are thousands of similar claims from prophets with hundreds of millions of adherents...
(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.standard.net ...
"But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.Paul encountered the same phenomenon in Galatia. He said the Galatians who were too gullible and ready to accept whatever someone was peddling. His conclusion:
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let that person be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let that person be under God’s curse!A "great family" built on unsound theology is a house built on sand.
Now comes the NT and its change isn't in method of salvation. There is still a need for a sacrifice, but this time it is the ultimate sacrifice of an innocent man - Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ the Yahweh of the Hebrews. Grace is that gift of the Atonement, the Sacrifice.
Jesus' own disciples and the Apostles didn't find that hard to swallow. They were Jews and understood the interaction of sacrifice and works in a way modern Evangelicals don't.
Let's look at Eph. 2:8-9 as a Jerusalem Jew would:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The grace is the ultimate sacrifice by and through Jesus Christ. There is no more need for sacrifice. Have faith in Jesus, the one whom God has sent. It is a gift of God, like manna.
That is verse 8.
Now Paul goes on to clarify, but you cannot think like a modern Evangelical, but as a Pharisee or Sadducee, that is as a New Testament time Jew, to understand what Paul's getting at.
(1) Paul says it's "not from yourselves" (Aren't works from ourselves?)
Yes, and excellent. You're thinking like a modern Evangelical, though. The Jewish problem, alluded to throughout the NT is not just pride in their own works, but that they worshiped works over God. See Mark 2:27 for an example. Their zeal for works blinded them. There would still be works to do, but they'd count for naught without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) Paul says "it is the gift of God"
Yes, I think this is clear to both Jew and Gentile - salvation is a free gift.
(3) In 2:9, the apostle Paul expressly says "not by works"
Paul is clear for his audience: without Jesus Christ all your works are wasted. Paul's telling them that you're missing your Messiah. Drop your preconceived notions, your eisegesis and look at the truth.
(4) The apostle Paul says this is "so that no one can boast"
Again, Paul is addressing a very real concern that is infused in Jewish thinking - pride. If you miss your Messiah you may boast all you want, but you've missed the real, permanent sacrifice in favor of the Law.
Even when Paul talks about how we are His worksmanship in Eph. 2:10, you realize then that any good works we do -- it's because of the great creator worksmanship of God.
Excellent and completely correct. We're in agreement on this, but that doesn't preclude a need for works. God can clearly distinguish between the slothful servant and the hard working one. See Matthew 25 for some wonderful parables on this very matter.
Saint Irenaeus writes, 'there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.vii.ii.v.html Fragments of Papias
The insight of this Church Father may help clarify this issue for you.
Best FReegards, TenTen
So here's the challenge, no? Either one must be a scholar of the caliber reaganaut claims to be to 'escape' the LDS Church or people can simply disagree on their faith claims, no?
I mean what kind of God makes you have to get degrees in Biblical studies, Ancient History (Rome and Egypt), Culinary arts, Poli Sci, Medieval History and membership in the Archeological Institute of America to get saved?
No; your resources are merely limited.
You gotta look in ALL of the things MORMONism considers SCRIPTURE.
Brigham Young said,
"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture." (Journal of Discourses 13:95).
Yeah; try DU for more evenhandedness toward ALL religions.
No, Norm; it is just a CHRISTIAN site.
Indeed. But an AWFUL lot of it is PRESENTED by those who HAVE already found it!
HMMmm...
Howdy, Maam. Would you like a copy of our Journal of Discourses?
No; it is NOT considered SCRIPTURE, but it has some REALLY good stuff in it!
No; GENTILES can't use quotes from it, for they'll get the WRONG stuff - mere opinions.
Yes; we are trained to sift out the GOOD stuff in it - solid MORMON teachings that are not, uh, opinion; I think.
No; we are NOT them damned FLDS folks!
THEY get EXCOMMUNICATED from OUR (the ONLY true MORMONs) group if they DARE to actually follow SCRIPTURE found in D&C132!
If??
Try reading the Book!
FACT overcame lack of faith.John 20:24-28
Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
If MORMONs had FAITH; Hill Cumorah would be dug up and all the artifacts presented to a DOUBTING world!
And then some!
But they want you to 'pray' about the 'truth' of the BoM!
MORMONism's definition of Heaven as a TRIPLE place is yet another indicator of your faulty theology.
Check the MORMON record. They are revealed all right!
HMMmm...
Using stuff that ain't SCRIPTURE to make a point?
How UN-mormon!
What kind of a RELIGION would have you 'pray' about the 'truthfullness' of ONE of it's 'scriptures'; while keeping the OTHER ones hidden behind it's back?
I'll start immediately.
No, that is a misrepresentation. One must desire truth more than desiring the church to be true. Basic principle of non-contradiction.
I mean what kind of God makes you have to get degrees in Biblical studies, Ancient History (Rome and Egypt), Culinary arts, Poli Sci, Medieval History and membership in the Archeological Institute of America to get saved?
None 10 - again, a dishonest representation of the facts. If you were honest, you would notice that the process of learning revealed that which mormonism would try to keep hidden from its rank and file. I emphasize dishonest on your part 10, because time and again reaganaut's testimony was one of trying to counter anti-arguements and her studies were towards that end initially.
Read just about any exmormon testimony and you will find a common thread that really 'learning' the true history of mormonism is one lightbulb moments for exmos.
I think you can do better than misrepresenting others beliefs and motivations to make what pitiful point you are attempting to make.
Thanks for your insight. I appreciate the link. I will look it up. I have friends that are of differing faiths. I don’t know if I feel the “love”, but knowledge is power. I remember history. Didn’t JFK face huge anti Catholocism before becoming President? If my non revisionist history is right, by joe, I am correct.
You will find contradiction in truth if you want to. That doesn’t make truth “wrong.” It makes the one reviewing the truth wrong or distorted. Imperfection is not the absence of truth. Infact, I am surprised that when I defend my faith how hostile others are. I just fight fire with fire. Porter Rockwell style. Some people are happy and fluffy. I love people with “brass knuckles.”
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