Now comes the NT and its change isn't in method of salvation. There is still a need for a sacrifice, but this time it is the ultimate sacrifice of an innocent man - Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ the Yahweh of the Hebrews. Grace is that gift of the Atonement, the Sacrifice.
Jesus' own disciples and the Apostles didn't find that hard to swallow. They were Jews and understood the interaction of sacrifice and works in a way modern Evangelicals don't.
Let's look at Eph. 2:8-9 as a Jerusalem Jew would:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The grace is the ultimate sacrifice by and through Jesus Christ. There is no more need for sacrifice. Have faith in Jesus, the one whom God has sent. It is a gift of God, like manna.
That is verse 8.
Now Paul goes on to clarify, but you cannot think like a modern Evangelical, but as a Pharisee or Sadducee, that is as a New Testament time Jew, to understand what Paul's getting at.
(1) Paul says it's "not from yourselves" (Aren't works from ourselves?)
Yes, and excellent. You're thinking like a modern Evangelical, though. The Jewish problem, alluded to throughout the NT is not just pride in their own works, but that they worshiped works over God. See Mark 2:27 for an example. Their zeal for works blinded them. There would still be works to do, but they'd count for naught without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) Paul says "it is the gift of God"
Yes, I think this is clear to both Jew and Gentile - salvation is a free gift.
(3) In 2:9, the apostle Paul expressly says "not by works"
Paul is clear for his audience: without Jesus Christ all your works are wasted. Paul's telling them that you're missing your Messiah. Drop your preconceived notions, your eisegesis and look at the truth.
(4) The apostle Paul says this is "so that no one can boast"
Again, Paul is addressing a very real concern that is infused in Jewish thinking - pride. If you miss your Messiah you may boast all you want, but you've missed the real, permanent sacrifice in favor of the Law.
Even when Paul talks about how we are His worksmanship in Eph. 2:10, you realize then that any good works we do -- it's because of the great creator worksmanship of God.
Excellent and completely correct. We're in agreement on this, but that doesn't preclude a need for works. God can clearly distinguish between the slothful servant and the hard working one. See Matthew 25 for some wonderful parables on this very matter.
Saint Irenaeus writes, 'there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.vii.ii.v.html Fragments of Papias
The insight of this Church Father may help clarify this issue for you.
Best FReegards, TenTen
HMMmm...
Using stuff that ain't SCRIPTURE to make a point?
How UN-mormon!
Wow! This is getting mighty embarrassing for you, 1010. What? The Old Testament doesn't define God as either Gracious or One who bestows faith in Himself?
From Genesis -- where it starts out mentioning finding favor (Gen. 6:5) to Malachi (Mal. 1:9), we find constant references to:
* references where God is described as gracious (Ex. 22:27; Ex. 34:6; 2 Kings 13:23; 2 Chron. 30:9; Ps. 103:8; Ps. 112:4; Ps. 145:8; Is. 30:18; Is. 33:2; Joel 2:13; Amos 5:15; Jonah 4:2; Zech. 4:7; Mal. 1:9; etc.)
* references where God gives grace (Gen. 33:5; Nu. 6:25; 2 Sam. 12:22; 2 Kings 13:23; Job 33:24; Jer. 31:2; Prov. 3:34; etc.)
* OT characters wanting to find grace in God's sight (Gen. 19:19; 32:5; 33:10; 34:11; 47:25; 50:4; Ex. 33:12-17 (five references just in these six verses); Num. 32:5; Judg. 6:17; Ruth 2:2; etc.
And faith. Do you really want me to go into a litany of OT verses focusing on faith? Especially since the apostle Paul gives Abraham as his star example of faith in the book of Romans even before the Israelites came into being under that banner? And that this same Paul described OT figure after OT figure in the "Hall of Fame of faith" in Hebrews 11?
...that doesn't preclude a need for works.
The Lord created us. We are re-created in Him. The Holy Spirit lives in us. Good works are HIS Fruit in us. We don't get the credit or glory. I'd like to hear to state that: We don't get the credit or glory for good works...It is the Holy Spirit working through us...can we agree on that -- or not?
Do you agree with the theology Jesus expressed in this verse? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’” (Luke 17:10)
Would you like for me to cite the endless Mormon leaders' emphasis on "worthiness" and how we will be judged on it? Yet Jesus says just the opposite when it comes to works: We are unworthy servants...and when we do those good works, so what? He says, 'we have only done our duty.'
I think you've lived in the employer world too long, 1010. It almost sounds like you want to impose a contemporary servants had annual-written-reviews detailing their worthiness! I believe one of the reasons God allowed slavery and servanthood was because both are spiritual realities: Slavery to sin & the devil, etc.; and servanthood to our Lord. But even the Greek word for servant -- doulos -- is bond servant...and is closer to "slave" than any modern-day understanding of servanthood.
Your response shows me you still don't grasp what Jesus said in Luke 17:10.
Yes, I think this is clear to both Jew and Gentile - salvation is a free gift.
Let me add one more point because what we're talking about is really wrapped around this key point of departure: Mormons are only able to "get away" with saying that "salvation is a free gift" by claiming that salvation doesn't include living with Heavenly Father forever.
That's it in a nutshell. They reduce Heaven to a place -- NOT living with the Personal God forever. Such utter idolatry -- to elevate the place minus the Person. Repent! For a Kingdom is no Kingdom minus the King!
1010, let me repeat that for emphasis: The Kingdom of God is no Kingdom at all minus the King! It is no salvation at all -- not in a so-called telestial kingdom or so-called terrestial kingdom -- to not be reconciled with our Heavenly Father.
Families are forever? Supposedly if you're a temple Mormon, not single, have tithed to the Mormon church, are in good-standing with the Mitt Romneyites of the world (when he was a bishop asking temple recommend Qs), and jump through the 10,000 hoops established by the Mormon church on a daily legalistic basis!
But what's a family minus the Head Father, 1010?
Here Jesus defined "eternal life" to be in a real relationship with Jesus and our Father -- "And this is eternal life -- to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." (John 17:3)
And Mormons want to continually both define...
...eternal life as of the celestial kingdom only -- limited to temple Mormons who perform ritualistic Mormon temple ordinances, tithe & are in a proper human relationship (marriage -- doesn't matter if it's to more than one spouse or not);
...and contradiction-wise "salvation" as being eternally alienated and unreconciled from the "only true God."