True Soldiers in the Church Militant

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20011123_True_Soldiers_in_the_Church_Militant.html ^ | 2001 | Peter W. Miller

[D-fendr]

The language sounds harsh, unless you compare it to what we see on occassion on these threads. :)

But, if protestants are not against the Church, then what is the point? If you’re against the Church - oppose it and it’s teaching, then I think “enemy” is a correct term.

[D-fendr]

See if this works:

St. Louis

St. Michael

St. Joan of Arc

St. Martin De Tours

[WhoHuhWhat]

Do you claim that Pope Benedict XVI holds all Protestants to be an enemy of the Church?

[stfassisi]

He holds to Church teaching-that the Invincibly ignorant is not an enemy of the Church- The hard core protestant that believes the reformation was necessary is an enemy of Christ and His Church

[JLLH]

“The hard core protestant that believes the reformation was necessary is an enemy of Christ and His Church.”

Nonsense. Christ is my personal Savior. Is He yours? As one of His, I am part of the body of Chirst - the only Church He recognizes.

[stfassisi]

Any break from unity is NOT from God and the Reformation has no unity within itself or all protestants would all be Lutherans.

“But he seeing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself, shall be brought to desolation, and house upon house shall fall.-Luke 11:17

Luther’s kingdom has fallen!

Good Night ,I wish you a Blessed evening!

[WhoHuhWhat]

From New Advent: Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory.

So, rather than bookend Invincible ignorant and hard core protestant, please let me restate my question with the above definition.

Do you claim that Pope Benedict XVI holds all Protestants to be contained in the group of Invincible ignorant?

[Salvation]

Eccliastes 3

“A time for peace and a time for war.”

[JLLH]

If the alternative is heresy, yes, there is a need for Reformation.

And as a “hardcore” Protestant, I rather doubt seriously that you are wishing me a blessed anything. Your hatred for anyone who is not Catholic and does not adhere to your beliefs is all too palpable. I will pray for you.

[Salvavida]

The church isn’t in the O.T. (Eph); and the context of Solomon’s verse is experiential observation— not stating doctrine.

Hermaneutics.

[Salvation]

Did you ever hear of or study typology?

Ot’s applying the Old Testament to the New Testament.

There IS such a thing as JUST war.

[Elendur]

You are correct. we are brothers in Christ.
the Pope has affirmed that we will see Protestant brothers in Heaven.

but, the original statement, did NOT say ALL were enemies. (and, it also said “Jews”, but i noted NO ONE objected to that...)

“...such human enemies have included ...”

and certainly SOME of each of those groups, have been enemies.

any Protestant who calls me brother, i join in saying “Jesus is Lord”. but, MANY protestants have attacked me and my child, and told us we are going to Hell.

...and i am honored to know many Protestants and Baptists, who are BETTER Christians than me.
but, i do not include Luther in that.
if you read his OWN words, he is a hater of Jews beyond compare. a hater of science. and quotes from him about women, are beyond insulting, compared to what the Bible teachings about wives and women in Ephesians, Corinthians, and Proverbs 31.

http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/04/martin-luther-quotes.php
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/luther.htm

Most Baptists I know, respect Jews and Israel.
but if one like Luther, says their houses should be burned, etc., then yes, i DO call them an enemy of the Church of Jesus.

again, the original statement said “includes”, it did not say “all”.
and we DO need more Christian unity. which is why i respect ANY Christian, from any church, who doesn’t tell me that my child is going to Hell, for being Catholic.

(my child took communion at the Papal Mass. it was a perfect day. until we left the stadium. and people with BULLHORNS and large signs were saying all Catholics go to Hell, and the Pope is the anti-Christ.
HOW would you like to explain that, to YOUR child ?!?)

[Salvavida]

Sure, I’ve studied typology. But the church isn’t a “type” in the O.T. when the Bible specifically states that the church is NOT in the Hebrew Scriptures. Read Ephesians.

I believe there are just wars. But the church doesn’t wage physical war— it goes 100% against the teachings of Christ for and during the Church Age.

Solomon could justifiably observe in ECC of times of war and peace from his father David (and even before): his viewpoint was from a theocratic monarchy. God told Israel when to go to war. Interestingly, Israel was punished when David did an unauthorized census.

I appreciate your opinion. I run off of “Basic Bible Interpretation” by Roy Zuck, and a few others.

[Elendur]

a Baptist school, is the only non-public school i can afford.
my child has come home in tears more than once, because of the hatred of Catholics expressed there.
(they don’t know my child is Catholic.)

i asked my child, and they NEVER condemn or criticise Islam, which IS the religion of Satan himself.

i don’t personally know ANY Catholic who hates Baptists.
NOT ONE !
but even in the military when i was on funeral honor guard for a year, there was constant anti-catholic remarks.
i have personally experienced MUCH hate FROM Baptists.
yet even within the past few years, i have respectfully attended services with Baptist friends at their church.
...i freely admit, many of them are BETTER Christians than me, with a better chance of gaining Heaven.

And now, when there are almost 2 billion Muslims, is when we MOST need Christians of all churches, to unite and say “Jesus is Lord”.
and you will forgive me, if i think the Episcopals and Anglicans returning not individually, but as entire churches, is a good thing. And i pray soon the Orthodox will also soon reunite, with what i believe is the Universal church of Jesus.

[boatbums]

He holds to Church teaching-that the Invincibly ignorant is not an enemy of the Church- The hard core protestant that believes the reformation was necessary is an enemy of Christ and His Church

Then he is wrong. The hard core Roman Catholics that believe "their" church is the ONE, ONLY, TRUE church of Christ ignore their OWN Scriptures that clearly describe that the church of Christ is a spiritual body made of ALL believers in Christ regardless of the nameplate over the house of worship's door.

The Reformation, as you MUST know, sought to steer the Roman Catholic Church BACK to the orthodoxy of the first century. Centuries of wealth, power, worldly recognition and secular deference made "her" full of greed, lust, debauchery, murder, theft and bribery. The church that laid such claim to exclusivity ruled with horrible tyranny and completely forgot where and why the church was instituted in the first place. It's "duty" was NOT to conquer sin but to win sinners to Christ. She forgot that once this happened the heart of the redeemed was reborn and was indwelt with the very Holy Spirit of God that even enabled true piety and holiness. The reformation succeeded in that at least some of the wrong being committed by the clergy was stemmed but where it needed to be changed the most, the Catholic Church refused the discipline of God and the men and women who dared to challenge the church to change, were instead anathematized and persecuted and some were murdered. A far cry from the True Church Christ created.

Sadly, most of the false teachings of Rome have not been corrected but thank God the TRUE CHURCH - that spiritual body of Christ - continues and more souls are still being won through the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ who saves by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for the glory of God alone!

[boatbums]

AMEN!!!

[D-fendr]

The Church is right or wrong compared to YOUR interpretation of Holy Scripture.

To get to the true Christian faith, do we just accede to BB, or do we take a vote of Protestants?

Doesn’t work, FRiend, except as a Church of individuals and a faith of individuals. There’s no Church there.

[Salvation]

Have you ever heard of the Battles of Lepanto where the Moslems were invading Europe?

Prayer, specifically saying the Rosary, help those defending Europe defeat the Moslems.

I have one more question for you. Are you a democrat that you don’t support war?

[boatbums]

Do you claim that Pope Benedict XVI holds all Protestants to be contained in the group of Invincible ignorant?

That depends. If he clings to Unam Sanctum a papal "bull" (appropriate) from Pope Boniface VIII. It "lays down dogmatic propositions on the unity of the Catholic Church, the necessity of belonging to it for eternal salvation, the position of the pope as supreme head of the Church, and the duty thence arising of submission to the pope in order to belong to the Church and thus to attain salvation." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unam_sanctam.

If he instead clings to Vatican II the twenty-first Ecumenical Council which closed in 1965. BTW the current Pope (Benedict) was one of those who worked on the development of this work. One of the major documents resulting from this council was called Lumen Gentium. One of the key portions of Lumen Gentium is its second chapter, with its declaration that the Church is "the People of God":

At all times and in every race God has given welcome to who so ever fears Him and does what is right. God, however, does not make men holy and save them merely as individuals, without bond or link between one another. Rather has it pleased Him to bring men together as one people, a people which acknowledges Him in truth and serves Him in holiness… Christ instituted this new covenant, the new testament, that is to say, in His Blood, calling together a people made up of Jew and gentile, making them one, not according to the flesh but in the Spirit. This was to be the new People of God. For those who believe in Christ, who are reborn not from a perishable but from an imperishable seed through the word of the living God, not from the flesh but from water and the Holy Spirit, are finally established as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people . . . who in times past were not a people, but are now the people of God". (Lumen gentium, 9) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_Gentium

It also states: All human beings are called to belong to the Church. Not all are fully incorporated into the Church, but "the Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christ, but who do not however profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter" (Lumen gentium, 15). In addition, the Church declares the possibility of Salvation for non-Christians and even non-deists.

So, I would say, no, the current Pope probably doesn't consider us Protestants to be invincibly ignorant, and even, thank God, allows that we can indeed be saved by Christ outside of the Catholic Church. What is most curious is their admission that even non-Christians can be saved - if they do enough good works. How they sometimes get around directly answering things in diplo-speak is in referring to the catholic Church - which means the universal church of ALL Christians. They even go so far as to recognize the Eastern Orthodox Church as well as other Orthodox churches as also being a part of this universal church.

[JLLH]

First I want to say that I am sorry for any hurtful experiences you and your son have had. I truly am. I live in a state that is traditionally Catholic and while I am Southern Baptist I have never experienced the kind of vitriol aimed at Protestants (or Catholics) that I have experienced here. It truly is astonishing to me. In my state we live side by side and I truly had no idea that there were still Catholics who believed you were a heretic if you weren’t Catholic, that you were somehow the “enemy of Christ”, that one needed to “come home” to Catholicism, take pride in Catholicism, etc... I find it truly astonishing - and yes, frankly deeply offensive, unBiblical and wrong-headed. Anyone who puts their faith in something other than Christ and holds it dearer than Christ — be it membership in a specific denomination (be it the Roman Catholic Church, as some here are doing, Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.), money, fame, whatever — is also engaging in heretical worship - and that is also Satanic. It is, in essence, a form of idolatry.