Catholic bishops: Shun lawmakers who voted for NY same-sex marriage {Ecumenical thread}

Name a Catholic dogma that is not pure according to you, dear sister?

Dear brother, my point was not about the purity of Catholic Dogma per se; it was about how Dogma can be preached in a "twisted" form that actually contradicts its core meaning.

The best example I can think of is how the Beatitudes — the Gospel of St. Matthew (5:3–10) — have been highjacked as the moral justification for Social Justice theory (Liberation Theology).

The Church teaches that the paramount idea of the Beatitudes is the spiritual character of the Messianic kingdom. The poverty of which the Beatitudes speak is the spiritual poverty of an individual soul, of his meekness, of his humility before God.

Quoting from the Catholic Encyclopedia on-line,

...the promise of the heavenly kingdom is not bestowed on the actual external condition of such [i.e., material] poverty. The blessed ones are the poor "in spirit", who by their free will are ready to bear for God's sake this painful and humble condition, even though at present they be actually rich and happy; while on the other hand, the really poor man may fall short of this poverty "in spirit".

The Marxist theologian finds in the Beatitudes the moral justification of his Marxism. Then the accent necessarily falls, not on individual souls, but on groups of people. The focus shifts from the cultivation in the individual of spiritual poverty to the relief of the bodily needs of the social group. This, in effect, is what is meant by "Social Justice."

This is what I meant about how a pure Dogma can be corrupted by transmission by impure humans. What Marxist priests and nuns teach has nothing whatsoever to do with Catholic Dogma nor Christianity in general.

Or so it seems to me. JMHO FWIW

Thank you for writing, dear brother in Christ!

Very good answer and excellent post,dear bb.

I will also assume you agree with the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church in matters of Faith and Morals and will post otherwise if you disagree with any of them.

The Beatitudes is an example of some parts of the Scripture being confusing until, or unless, you understand other parts of it. When put together it is confusing only in its simplicity.

I will also assume you agree with the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church in matters of Faith and Morals....

That would be a good assumption, dear brother stfassisi. I've read the splendid reissue of the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, produced under the editorship of the brilliant Cristophe Cardinal Schönborn, as commissioned by, and under the auspices of, then-Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

I think it is simply, absolutely magnificent.

Thank you for your kind words, dear brother in Christ!

The Beatitudes is an example of some parts of the Scripture being confusing until, or unless, you understand other parts of it.

I so agree, dear MNR! Which is why the Holy Scriptures cannot profitably be read literally, one line at a time so to speak. Every line is part of a larger context, which is the Holy Scriptures entire. The amazing thing is no one Biblical statement contradicts any other statement — everything dovetails (to to speak) into the ultimate simplicity of this revelation from God expressed in symbolic (not literal!) language.

And another truly amazing thing is that, not only is it the case that no statement from the Holy Scriptures contradicts any other in any way, but also that any such statement does not contradict anything in God's three other revelations to us: the Creation itself, a/k/a/ the "Book of Nature," or the natural world; the revelation of the Son of God in the Incarnation of Christ; and the revelation of the Holy Spirit with us.

And all of God's Revelations are continuing.... Nothing is "finished" yet.... Except the perfect sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross, for the redemption of us sinners....

Or so it seems to me. I feel like an active participant in God's sacred drama....

In an earlier post, you wrote: "As I understand, it is between US and HIM, period. We are in a personal relationship with Him and from that we get our joy, our wisdom and our salvation!"

To me, this is fundamental. And it constitutes an amazing adventure....

Thank you ever so much for writing, dear Mind-numbed Robot!

I believe our very salvation rests upon our agreement with God that he saves us by his grace through faith in the sacrifice Christ made for us so that we may be made the "righteousness of God in Christ" (II Corinthians 5:21). If we believe we MUST add our righteousness to his righteousness in order to be saved, we are saying that Christ died in vain, that his death on the cross and rising from the dead was not sufficient to redeem us. I earnestly believe this is a critical point of doctrine and I do not see how it can, or should, ever be glossed over for the sake of "peace".

Well then, let's not gloss over it.

Right off the bat, I need to understand what is meant by "righteousness."

And then, there's another point I don't understand very well, the Dogma of Salvation by Faith and Grace alone. No need for any "works" there! For if we "work," then somehow this is tantamount to saying that Christ's Sacrifice was deficient in some way. Which is ludicrous. I do not know how to connect these dots....

All I come up with is: If "works" are not important to God, then why did He endow us with reason and free will — creating us in His own image and likeness? If all we have to do to be saved is to rest "faithfully" in the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, isn't this somewhat like lolling in a hammock all day long?

And then I understand it can be even worse than that — on the understanding that Faith is a gift that the Father either offers or withholds. The human person lucky enough to receive it (for God's inscrutable reasons) is just a passive receptacle. This Faith lays no burdens on him, and nothing to perform from his side, whatsoever. Just "be faithful." Regarding the wretch who didn't receive Faith by Grace, let us not ask....

Suffice it to say the wretch is doomed: for there's nothing he can put his faith and reason, and his free will to that can possibly turn his dire situation around, presumably not even a genuine, theophanic, down-to-the-ground "born-again" experience....

Again, why the endowment of man with faith and reason? On your theory (as I understand it), as far as his salvation is concerned, it would seem they are of no use to him.

I dunno....

I'm more attracted by the insight my dearest sister in Christ, Alamo-Girl, shared with me a few years back. Her thesis: There Is Only ONE Great Commandment: Love God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength. What follows is the corollary to this: "And thy neighbor as thyself." By "corollary," A-G suggests the instruction to "love thy neighbor" is not a second great commandment in itself, but the logic that flows from the First — er, the ONE — Great Commandment....

In short, by "loving our neighbor as ourself," we show God how very much we love HIM. This is not "lolling in the hammock time" at all. It calls for activity — for works. And this would explain why God saw fit to endow us mortals with the gifts of faith and reason in the first place, together with the liberty to make them effective, according to His Law.

Beyond that, I believe He wants relationship with us, Mind-to-mind, Spirit-to-spirit. And He equipped us for this encounter....

No hammock-lolling going on here!

Well, just some thoughts, dear sister.... Please fill me in on the points of my ignorance sketched above....

Thank you so much for writing, dear boatbums!

Dear Sister Betty,

First, "righteousness" is a legal term that is related to the word translated "just" (dikaios, dikao, etc.). Using that root word, we'd get "justness" instead of righteousness. That then fits with "justification" and with a God of "Justice."

Therefore, we are dealing with (1) the difference between being made "just" when we're already sinful (unjust), and (2) living justly once we've been made just (justified.)

Since we are sinful by nature, we cannot make ourselves "just." We can pay the penalty (prison, capital punishment) but it's a life eternal sentence of separation from God, who must stand for "Justice" or the creation is not ruled by Justice. Therefore, since we are unable ever to do anything to make ourselves just before God, we need a substitute player, a pinch-hitter, a relief-pitcher.

There are difficulties with the justice of asking one who is incapable of helping himself to help himself. (You don't ask the crippled man to run the marathon.) On the one hand, justice demands the penalty, but on the other, justice also demands capability. The incapable man must have a champion, a reliever to stand in for him. Jesus was that champion. He stood in perfectly for us and then, out of pure Love, gave His life's blood to correct the conflict in Justice. The Just died for the unjust to bring us to God.

That is the first part of "justness." We had to be made just, because we were inherently unjust.

The next part has to do with our behavior since the moment we became justified. As those redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, we are called to live a just life. We have a "new mind" and we are to "live for the Spirit rather than for the flesh."

The difficulty in this, of course, is that we STILL have this inhenently sinful flesh with which we were born. We are, therefore, to live for the Spirit rather than for the flesh. We are to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Sometimes, though, we find that the things we detest in our "new mind" we end up doing. As Paul says, "Who shall save us from this body of death? I thank God for my Lord Jesus Christ."

Therefore, the life of the Spirit pursues holiness...even pursues perfection, as the high calling of God. Yet, we stumble.

Good thing it's grace, first to last.

Thank God, though, for those who follow the Spirit, for by it they will put to death the deeds of the flesh.

We are saved and justified by grace through faith.

We are preserved, as well, by grace...even when we stumble. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Written by John to already Christians.

Thank you very much, xzins, for your well done answer. I am sorry I could only get around to replying until now.

I agree with you on this and I hope, dear Betty Boop, that xzins has answered your basic question. I was certainly speaking about our “state” before Almighty God and our inability to earn or merit the justification that he imparts to us by his grace through faith.

I object to anyone and any dogma that implies or hints at the need of human actions that must, somehow, contribute to the finished work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. When he made the final sacrifice for our sins, he said, “It is finished.”. The debt of the sins of all mankind against God had been paid by his shed blood - only blood makes an atonement for the soul. God requires that we agree with him about our sinfulness, our need for a redeemer and our acceptance of the gift of eternal life he gives to us when we trust in him.

I, in no way, meant to suggest that one who has accepted Christ as Savior can rest in a “hammock” and have no responsibilities before God to live holy lives that bring honor and glory to him. Quite the contrary! As xzins has said so well, “We have a “new mind” and we are to “live for the Spirit rather than for the flesh.”. It is only when we have become born again into the family of God and indwelled with the Holy Spirit that we are even able to live righteously for God.

God did not save us so that we have a license to sin, and any person who says he did is a liar. Just as Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.”, verse 10 continues to remind us, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”. God expects those he saves to be renewed in spirit and to walk worthy of the privilege of being his own and he enables us to do just that.

Here is a good understanding of Merit- as understood in Catholicism

http://www.saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

Merit is defined by the Catechism as “recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment (CCC 2006).” In Catholic doctrine, merit is a result of God’s fatherly decision to associate man with the work of his gift of grace. It must be emphasized that the original work of justification and sanctification must be attributed to God himself. Man cannot merit the initial grace of the Holy Spirit. It is a free, undeserving gift of God. However, by the grace of Baptism, as adoptive sons and daughters of God, we can merit for ourselves additional graces of sanctification through Christian charity and good works. It is always the gift of God’s love that brings forth merit through charity. St. Augustine proclaims the Church’s position in his cry to God, “You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.” Prayer is a central part of Christian life, for it is through prayer that we can merit the increase of grace and theological charity for others in the Mystical Body of Christ as well as ourselves.

We must not believe that, “God owes us something.” For the gift of grace is exactly that, a free and undeserved gift. It is only by our acceptance of grace through Baptism, that we can associate our works with that of grace from God. St. Paul tells us, “And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him (Romans 8:17)”. St. Paul emphasizes that by the grace merited from Jesus Christ’s suffering, death and resurrection we can be co-heirs with Christ and participate in merit by grace. Thus good works done in faith, hope and love for God, after justification of Baptism, can merit further increases in grace, justification, and sanctification. We participate with God in good works because of our love for him as our heavenly Father.

The Redemptive Role of Suffering

Christ desires for us to participate in his Passion, and thus suffering within the Body of Christ has a redemptive role. Because baptized Christians are part of the mystical Body of Christ, Jesus Christ the head of the body asks its members to participate not only in his resurrection and grace, but also in the suffering of his Passion. St. Paul firmly evinces this doctrine, “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church (Colossians 1:24).” He also says, “And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him (Romans 8:17).”

This does not mean that Christ’s redemption is lacking, or that his suffering was not enough for the redemption of the world. It only means that we are chosen to offer up our sufferings for the expiation of the temporal punishment deserved by our sin and the free participation in the life of Christ. Christ merits our redemption and forgives our sins but the punishment and penance for our selfish actions must still be. Paul’s letter to the Colossians notes that by offering our own sufferings for the body of Christ, we can make up for those members of the body of Christ whose sufferings are lacking. Thus the body of Christ, the Catholic Church, offers the collective suffering of its members for the expiation of temporal punishment and follows in the Passion and sufferings of the Head of the body of Christ, Jesus Christ.

This does not mean that Catholics go out of their way to look for suffering and hardship. Suffering, in itself, is a result of sin and evil manifested by the fall of mankind. Such acts as fasting, prayer and the offering of hardships to the Lord are beneficial. However, purposeful undue suffering and pain can in fact be a sin. In fact, the Church does attempt to correct and alleviate the temporal suffering of mankind (such as natural disaster victims, the hungry, the persecuted etc.) What Paul is really talking about is the unavoidable sufferaing that is a part of temporal life. A good Christian will accept the hardships of life that can not be alleviated. With good Christian humility and charity a suffering person will offer their suffering for the Body of Christ and its head, Jesus Christ.

I am late to this thread (don’t come here much anymore) but after I read your post, I was reminded of a simple word from 2Peter 3:13-15

“What we await are new heavens and a new earth where, according to his promise, the justice of God will reside. So,beloved, while waiting for this, make every effort to be found without stain or defilement, and at peace in his sight. Consider that our Lord’s patience is directed toward salvation.”

St. Paul mentions “effort”.

And yes, he also tells us “all is grace”. :-)

First, "righteousness" is a legal term that is related to the word translated "just" (dikaios, dikao, etc.). Using that root word, we'd get "justness" instead of righteousness. That then fits with "justification" and with a God of "Justice."

I prefer "justness" to "righteousness" as by far the more apt descriptive word; for as you point out, it better "fits with 'justification' and with a God of 'Justice.'" FWIW.

Plus the adjective "righteous" was pretty fully debased in the secular culture back in the 1960s, when it was common to hear it used to express approval/satisfaction for the outcome of something selfish and/or trivial, as in "That's righteous, man!"; e.g., that your girlfriend isn't pregnant, or you got front-row seats at the upcoming Janice Joplin concert, etc., etc.

As you note "just" is the usual translation of the Greek dikaios, etc., which in Greek thought was associated with the idea of the eternal order of Justice in the cosmos — Dike — violations of which require a penalty that human beings cannot evade....

And you rightly point out that it is Jesus Christ Who pays this penalty for us, and why:

Since we are sinful by nature, we cannot make ourselves "just." We can pay the penalty (prison, capital punishment) but it's a life eternal sentence of separation from God, who must stand for "Justice" or the creation is not ruled by Justice. Therefore, since we are unable ever to do anything to make ourselves just before God, we need a substitute player, a pinch-hitter, a relief-pitcher.

There are difficulties with the justice of asking one who is incapable of helping himself to help himself. (You don't ask the crippled man to run the marathon.) On the one hand, justice demands the penalty, but on the other, justice also demands capability. The incapable man must have a champion, a reliever to stand in for him. Jesus was that champion. He stood in perfectly for us and then, out of pure Love, gave His life's blood to correct the conflict in Justice. The Just died for the unjust to bring us to God.

I never meant to suggest that there is a route to salvation through works alone. There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, the Word of God, Logos Alpha to Omega, our Savior, our Hope, the Source of Truth and Justice in our lives and of all Creation, heavenly and earthly; Who Is our coming Judge. Rather, I was thinking about James 2:17:

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [KJV]

We have Faith by God's Grace. If we truly live in Christ, our works are the natural expressions of that Faith. This is not the same as saying that we can do works so as to win "brownie points" from God that can be cashed in at Judgement Day. [Though there are apparently people who believe this.] Such works are active, on-going expressions of our love for God, signifying that we love Him with our whole heart and soul and mind and strength.... Thus we stand in Faith before our God.

He is seeking relationship with His children. This is a dynamic condition requiring response from the human side. It is active, not passive. And it expresses in acts, works of charity and justice....

Just a final note re: Grace, from the Catholic perspective:

Grace is the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call. The Church teaches us that grace moves us to participate in the life of God and moves us to begin and sustain a relationship with our Creator. Grace not only assists us in living the Christian life through purification of our hearts, it literally changes our souls by infusing divine life to heal the wounds of sin. Grace is wrought through the work of the Holy Spirit, and grace is what initially moves our hearts to conversion and repentance. — St. Thomas Aquinas

Do the Reformed churches understand Grace in such terms?

Well, just some thoughts, dear pastor! Thank you ever so much for your beautiful, eloquent, and eminently just essay/post.

Colossians 2

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

I do agree with you that there certainly ARE main tenets of the Christian faith that should be nonnegotiable. The three you named are pretty much what Scripture also describes as the way we can know the faith of another is based upon truth. Jesus told his followers as well as his detractors that, "If you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.” (John 8:23).

There is agreement that to be a true Christian, we MUST believe that Jesus is who he claimed to be and that is he is "God with us". The fact of the resurrection is part and parcel with who Jesus is and what he came to do. The differences that I see within some Christian denominations, that is the MOST critical to our salvation, is the argument about the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Some claim that Jesus came to die for us to erase the debt of "original sin" and to "open the gates of Heaven", but that it is up to us to live sinless lives so that we earn his grace or participate in this grace. They say God's grace is "infused" rather than "imputed". They say the grace of God that brings salvation must be merited by cooperating with his grace by our deeds and works of "love" and that, if we sin and die before we confess our sins and do penance for them, we will not go to be with God in heaven - regardless of our faith in Christ. This, to me defies what Scripture says about the gift of eternal life by grace through faith. And this is the primary splitting-off point with which I will NOT, CAN NOT agree to disagree.

I believe our very salvation rests upon our agreement with God that he saves us by his grace through faith in the sacrifice Christ made for us so that we may be made the "righteousness of God in Christ" (II Corinthians 5:21). If we believe we MUST add our righteousness to his righteousness in order to be saved, we are saying that Christ died in vain, that his death on the cross and rising from the dead was not sufficient to redeem us. I earnestly believe this is a critical point of doctrine and I do not see how it can, or should, ever be glossed over for the sake of "peace".

Preach it, sister!!!

Galatians 2:15-16 15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:19-21 19For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:1-6 1) O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?

Galatians 3:10-14 10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." 12But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

boatbums: ... but that it is up to us to live sinless lives so that we earn his grace or participate in this grace.

stf: I hope you will realize that you're falling into Pelagian heresy,dear sister

MB: Oh Lord, please don't tell me that you have succumbed to this, dear bb. In spite of our differences, I feel very strongly about you. Please don't depart from Christianity any more than you already have.

Oh, she did not say that. Quit cherry picking comments and read them in context.

What she said in its entirety was this.....

boatbums: Some claim that Jesus came to die for us to erase the debt of "original sin" and to "open the gates of Heaven", but that it is up to us to live sinless lives so that we earn his grace or participate in this grace. They say God's grace is "infused" rather than "imputed". They say the grace of God that brings salvation must be merited by cooperating with his grace by our deeds and works of "love" and that, if we sin and die before we confess our sins and do penance for them, we will not go to be with God in heaven - regardless of our faith in Christ. This, to me defies what Scripture says about the gift of eternal life by grace through faith. And this is the primary splitting-off point with which I will NOT, CAN NOT agree to disagree.

All I come up with is: If "works" are not important to God, then why did He endow us with reason and free will — creating us in His own image and likeness? If all we have to do to be saved is to rest "faithfully" in the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, isn't this somewhat like lolling in a hammock all day long?

There is a difference between relying on those works to earn us salvation or part of it and doing the good works which God ordained in the past for us to do as a result of our salvation.

The works are the testimony to the world of the work of grace in our lives, but they earn us nothing in regard to entering heaven.

They are critical in bringing others to Christ in that they show others the love that Christ has for them. How could it be displayed without works? But the believer has had the legal debt forgiven first and been empowered by the Holy Spirit to then DO those works which God has for us to do.

And then I understand it can be even worse than that — on the understanding that Faith is a gift that the Father either offers or withholds. The human person lucky enough to receive it (for God's inscrutable reasons) is just a passive receptacle. This Faith lays no burdens on him, and nothing to perform from his side, whatsoever. Just "be faithful." Regarding the wretch who didn't receive Faith by Grace, let us not ask....

That kind of predestinationist thinking is not widely held in any of the Protestant/Evangelical circles I have encountered. It does not jive with free will and makes a mockery of God's command to all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) if He has then predetermined beforehand that they cannot.

That simply does not fit with the way God has portrayed Himself in Scripture as the loving Father to whom nothing is more important than to secure the welfare of His children, the One who has done everything conceivable to make it as easy as possible for us to believe and accept the gift of salvation which He holds out to us, except making the decision for us. He will not force. That is not love on the part of either party. Not He who would be doing the forcing, nor the respondent who would have no choice in the matter but would be following merely pre-programmed instructions.

No hammock-lolling going on here!

True, but He does not hang our salvation over our heads over our works.

There will be gain and loss of rewards in heaven, but those rewards are not heaven itself. They are in addition.

Oh thank you so much for your outstanding essay/post on the subject "faith vs. works" dear sister in Christ!

It seems to me that the formulation of faith and works in terms of a "versus" situation is entirely wrong. The latter are entirely founded in the former, which is a gift of God's holy Grace.

But I do not believe that you construe the faith "vs." works problem in this way.

Still, I have questions (what a surprise). You wrote:

There is a difference between relying on ... works to earn us salvation or part of it and doing the good works which God ordained in the past for us to do as a result of our salvation.

What do you mean by "God ordaining good works in the past?" What can "PAST" mean to God, Who is timeless, that is, eternal? Who is always "with us" in every moment via His Holy Spirit — if we would but allow His Spirit to abide with us?

You wrote:

... "predestinationist thinking is not widely held in any of the Protestant/Evangelical circles I have encountered. It does not jive with free will and makes a mockery of God's command to all men everywhere to repent.

I so agree. But if we can agree about this, can we agree about the sense in which we are to understand God [pre-]ordaining anything?

To say that God knows all things at once — in all times and places on earth and in heaven, including knowledge of the fall of a sparrow, and the number of hairs on my and your head — is not the same thing as saying that God "determines" what a man will do. For the Father created this man, this son, to be a "free actor." He just knows about what the son will do, and the outcome, as it were "in advance."

Yet as you so truly say, dear sister:

He will not force. That is not love on the part of either party. Not He who would be doing the forcing, nor the respondent who would have no choice in the matter but would be following merely pre-programmed instructions.

Man IMHO has virtually zero conception of timelessness. A mortal creature, he is relentlessly time-bound. None of his direct observations have gone beyond space-and-time-bound objects, nor can they.

Of course, as the long course of human history will attest, most of the truly important things in human life, in the now and hereafter, are not "direct observables"....

It takes the Holy Spirit to illuminate such things, by God's Holy Grace....

Personally, my heart does not warm to the Calvinist teaching respecting predestination — as you have probably already gathered, dear sister in Christ. I just do not know how to "connect the dots" between this teaching and God's gift of free will. If God "determines" everything in the strict sense — a very Newtonian concept, may I say — then why does He want to engage individual human souls in relationship with Himself? If they're already de facto "programmed" from the Beginning, then why bother?

Plus it has been observed that the Calvinist idea of predestination in effect makes God — not man — responsible for all the suffering in the world. And, considering the sheer scale of the suffering in recent historical times, such a belief leads to the idea that God must be some sort of "moral monster"....

Wow. We really have been touching on some deeply critical questions of late, in our FR conversation here!

Thank you ever so much, dear sister in Christ, for your splendid essay/post!

What do you mean by "God ordaining good works in the past?" What can "PAST" mean to God, Who is timeless, that is, eternal? Who is always "with us" in every moment via His Holy Spirit — if we would but allow His Spirit to abide with us?

Simply that we are creatures bound by time and it's a useful way of using terminology for us to understand. Based on this verse....

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Personally, my heart does not warm to the Calvinist teaching respecting predestination — as you have probably already gathered, dear sister in Christ.

I hear you. Yes, God is sovereign, but you are right, foreknowing is not ordaining behavior.

I can certainly predict, based on my knowledge of my children's likes and dislikes and their character, what course of action they are going to take in certain areas, but that does not mean that I made them do it. I just know them well enough to know pretty well how they are going to respond.

In a relationship, I want the people I relate to to love me freely, not from compulsion. That makes it meaningless.

Besides, with the total predestination mindset, there is a whole passel of verses about choosing to follow God that need to be explained away and I've never seen that accomplished adequately.

One of my favorites.....

Joshua 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Knowing I am not academically capable of contributing to this discussion, I have purposely stayed away for a few days. Even now, I have just skimmed to get the flavor of the latest before offering a thought.

Our God, the Christian God, Who is a Threefer (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), has it all neatly wrapped in that very Trinity.

He has set up the universe to be Just. It is cause and effect, reap what you sow, eye for an eye, Karma and science. It is physical, once again, in accordance with the original sin. The physical world is raw Justice.

Yet, it is not Justice that mankind needs, considering the Original sin and all. What mankind needs is Mercy. That is where Jesus enters the equation. Our Just God has given us Jesus so that we might have mercy.

Mankind also needs to communicate with God, to feel the connection, to know that his (man’s) faith is true. We need to feel the Love, to know that we know the Truth, so that we can see the Light and live the Life. That is where the Holy Spirit comes into play.

So there you have it! Justice, Mercy, Love, Truth, Light and Life all neatly wrapped up into the Trinity

May God continue to bless you my Christian friends.

Thank you for those wonderful verses, Metmom! I've read them so many times, but just reading them again renewed my gratitude to our Savior who became accursed for us - in our place - so that we are made righteous in God's eyes.

I also appreciated the verse, "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:3). I think this is especially pertinent to the discussion we are having here regarding grace and the role of works in our salvation. How foolish to think that what God began in us by his Spirit (by his grace) through faith is somehow perfected by our own efforts (works). It IS foolish! There is NOTHING we can do to earn more of God's love, mercy and grace. We can certainly - and should - live lives that bring him glory, win others to him and demonstrate our love and gratitude for his unspeakable gift, but he loves us just the same. That is so heartwarming and endears him even more to me!