Posted on 06/25/2011 7:52:46 AM PDT by Bed_Zeppelin
What happens when you die? The Bible uses the word death in different senses. Jesus said: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Mt 10:28). Also in Revelation 20:6, John speaks of a “second death,” apparently distinguishing it from the first death or the usual understanding of death.
It is important to note that the only way to escape the second death and Hell is through the Lord Jesus Christ (Jn 11:26). Make sure to be in on that one! Now we turn to what happens to Christian believers at the “first death.” Paul addresses the issue of what happens to Christians when they die in 2 Corinthians 5:8 when he says “we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” This refers to the intermediate state between a believer’s death and the resurrection of all believers’ bodies at the Parousia.
I have always thought that heaven is temporary state until Jesus returns for the general resurrection of the dead (Dan 12:2; Rev 20:4-6). So if you die before Christ returns, I always assumed you exist as a spirit until then. It seems to me that we consist of material and immaterial elements and in our present lives we are in a state of conditional unity. A useful analogy for conditional unity comes from chemistry.
Did you know that every summer, including this one, thousands of people will die from dihydrogen monoxide inhalation? Yes it is true… they drown while swimming in pools, the ocean or lakes. It’s a bad joke. Dihydrogen monoxide is H20 or plain old water. Now of course we all know that water is not usually dangerous and is, in fact, essential for life.
But what happens when you break water down into its two components hydrogen and oxygen? It suddenly takes on drastically different properties. In fact, it gets downright dangerous. In the presence of an oxidizer like oxygen, hydrogen can catch fire, sometimes explosively, and it burns more easily than gasoline does. According to the American National Standards Institute, hydrogen requires only one tenth as much energy to ignite as gasoline does. So when water is separated into its two elements, they are nothing like water.
It seems appropriate to think of the body and soul in the same way. In life we are like a molecule consisting of body and soul. At death the material and immaterial are separated and take on different properties. The material body decays and the immaterial soul transfers into the spiritual dimension. So what does the New Testament tell us about this process?
According to some scholars, Paul does not seem to believe in a bodiless ethereal state in heaven rather an immediate transformation to a new body. F.F. Bruce thinks Paul’s view is that some sort of body is essential to personhood.[1] This is most evident in 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 where he speaks of putting on the heavenly dwelling. Paul argues that we put it on so that we will “not be found naked” (2 Cor 5:3) which likely refers to the intermediate state in which believers’ spirits are with God but they do not yet enjoy their resurrected bodies.
Accordingly, Bruce argues that Paul did not envision an intermediate state as a disembodied spirit and that it is difficult to distinguish any difference between this and the glorified body believers are to receive at the Parousia (1 Cor. 15:51). He believes that Paul is teaching that believers receive their eternal resurrection bodies at death, rather than waiting for Christ to return in glory.[2]
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (Php 3:20-21)
Scholars have different views on this. Like Bruce, W. D. Davies argues, “there is no room in Paul’s theology for an intermediate state of the dead.”[3] But 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 seems to place this at the last trump – the return of Christ. The general consensus of conservative theologians seems to support an intermediate state between death and the resurrection body. Millard Erickson argues, “there is no inherent untenability about the concept of disembodied existence. The human being is capable of existing in either a materialized (bodily) or immaterialized condition.”[4]
Many commentators view the 2 Corinthians 5:1 passage as Paul’s “hope of receiving the resurrection body at Christ’s return.”[5] Another view of Paul’s argument about “not being found naked” is that it was intended as a polemic against those who taught existence in a state of disembodied immortality.[6] There are passages in the Bible that seem to support the idea of a temporary disembodied soul state (Rev 6:9) but even here these tribulation martyrs put on white robes. Isaiah 14:9-10 seems to describe the disembodied souls of the dead being “stirred up.” 2 Corinthians 12:2-3 also supports the idea of existence outside of a body.
I guess biggest question you have to ask is that if we get a body at death, then what is resurrection of the dead at Christ’s return for? It would no longer seem necessary (1 Thes 4:17; Rev 20:4). It seems to be tied to our old body in some way. Accordingly, there seems to be an intermediate state of some sort. A humble posture is in order as the evidence does not seem conclusive either way. Perhaps the resurrection body is granted but not fully realized until Christ’s return?
Either way the biblical teaching is clear that believers enjoy immediate fellowship with the Lord. Contrary to the teachings of Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses, the idea of soul sleep is not supported by the biblical text (Luke 23:43; Phil. 1:23; Heb. 12:23). This offers great comfort to the loved ones of Christians. They need not grieve as those who have no hope (1 Thes 4:13).
Finally, 2 Corinthians 5:6-10 offers ample motivation for living to please God as well. We are charged to live courageously in knowledge that we will soon appear before the judgment seat of Christ when we shall give an account of our lives (Ro 14:12).
Moses and Abraham are alive and well in Heaven. As well as many others who are necessary for the preparation of Heaven. The remainder will be joined at The Second Coming.
But the dead in Christ DID rise first! They were roaming around Jerusalem after the Resurrection of Christ and only the believers could see them. They were waiting for Christ to ascend to heaven.
Even with the good thief — “Christ says, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” That Paradise is a pleasant or not so pleasant waiting place — depending on the state of one’s soul at the moment of death.
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, ‘tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there’s the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law’s delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover’d country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.... —Hamlet
That’s not a parable.
the BODY dies at death; the SOUL lives and undergoes a particular judgment with Christ.
It is at the Last Judgment that we are reunited with our bodies.
No one knows the answer of course but I'm beginning to believe that earth and its inhabitants are the only battleground for good vs. evil. Now in another dimension is an entirely different matter further delved into in your next question.
"And if that is the case, could it be assumed that maybe we are just a tiny speck and there are greater powers screwing with us in some sort of weird alien game of chess?"
Ephesians 6:12 implies that there are principalities, powers, and wicked rulers definitely waging war against the human race.
"Sorry, daughter got very sick and is hospitalized..again. This thread seemed to have significance based on the title and this is how I am coping. My bad."
Truly sorry you, your daughter, and your family is going through this. May the God of mercy and healing be with you all through this ordeal.
I understand that is the Roman Catholic position. Is that right?
By putting the comma in the proper place you can make better sense of it. Jesus was assuring him that day , that he would be with Him in paradise. The "good" thief didn't even die that day. He died after sunset which was, in Jewish terms, the next day.
One of my favorite theological writers is Spiros Zohiades. He is an expert on ancient Greek, and he has written quite of few books going through the NT with emphasis on translation, and a lot of commentaries.
He wrote a book called “Life after death.” It’s very interesting, quite intricate. For instance, I did not understand the differences between hell and hadees.
If you have not seen it, watch Season Two, Episode One of Through the Wormhole. It goes over some fascinating (THEORIES!) ideas of life after death.
Don't you agree that a parable involving events, occurrences, and persons which are patently impossible is a rather poor and misleading parable? And that a parable which the listeners KNOW could not possibly be true would likely miss its mark ENTIRELY?
It's like a sitting president saying "Now, when President Rooseveldt heard that the Germans had dropped the nuclear bomb on San Diego, he didn't go on Youtube and say..."
In other words: If one wishes to explain a deeper truth, it is allowable to employ such literary techniques as allegory by saying "There was once a master who had three servants..." even though it isn't your intention to claim that there were four actual, existent persons. But if you mention, in the course of a narrative, actual persons by NAME, then you shouldn't put words in their mouths, as Jesus did in the story about LAZARUS and the rich man, or put words in ABRAHAM's mouth, claiming that he rebuked the rich man and told him that he would not send LAZARUS to warn the rich man's relatives.
I mean: Could you imagine a great contemporary teacher and political thinker saying "Now it came to pass that FDR was on the 'Pirates of the Caribbean' ride in Disneyland and he was sitting next to Abraham Lincoln. Now Lincoln had always felt that..."
It would simply DEFY belief, and make the whole story incredible.
Jesus and His listeners obviously BELIEVED that, after death, the souls of the departed retained consciousness, and could converse with one another - even SEE one another (one in Heaven, another in torment) - and express wishes.
Regards,
Regards,
Well, now that you brought it up: What is the difference?
Regards,
Yes, I do. However the Eastern mind and storytelling is different than the Western mind and storytelling. The audience were familiar with the circumstances and people involved in Jesus' parables. They understood the meaning easily. The Lazarus and Abrahams' bosom allegory would likewise be recognized by the audience for what it is - an illustration of the horrors of Hell and not a literal event.
Yes, but I took your insistence that it was mere allegory or metaphor, and not a parable, to mean that you denied even the reality of a Heaven or a Hell into which souls had already - at the time the narrative was told - been inducted; that Jesus did not wish to imply even that the souls of, for instance, beggars and/or rich men had already been sent to the Hereafter, where they retained their consciousness and could, e.g., beg for Abraham to send Lazarus to warn relatives.
I took your remark to mean that you were an adherent of the school of thought that, upon death, one enters an unconscious state, a sort of spiritual suspended animation, until Judgement Day.
Regards,
The first thing that happens is the government steals your estate. Since whether or not there’s an afterlife, and where in in you go, since the trip can’t be taxed, none of it really matters.
“I took your remark to mean that you were an adherent of the school of thought that, upon death, one enters an unconscious state, a sort of spiritual suspended animation, until Judgement Day.”
That is partially correct. Of course there are many saints who are in Heaven now with tasks to be performed no doubt. The majority will have to wait for Second Coming to awaken from their sleep. As for souls being tormented in Hell now, that would be ridiculous to have the punishment before the trial. The Great White Throne judgement will be an event that all will participate in. It hasn’t happened yet so nobody should be in Hell at this time except for the usual suspects (Satan and fellow demons).
Incorrect. The soul is in the blood. Leviticus tells us this. The spirit is the breath of life, which returns to Him that gave it. We are triune, created in the image of a triune God. Body, soul and spirit. There is "soul sleep" as the soul, in the blood, dies with the body at death until resurrection and judgment. To be absent the body is to be in the presence of the Lord in spirit.
Leviticus also tells us in that passage, albeit by inference, that animals have souls. I Corinthians 15:35-45 tells us they also have spirits, as do we. So, to the very thorough student of the Bible seeking to digest and integrate Biblical details upon the subject, it's no mystery.
Both are correct, but only in part. The body dies, the soul "sleeps" and the spirit returns to God. At resurrection and judgment, the faithful of mankind are made whole once more in perfected, glorified bodies untainted by sin and death. Those who are not will be thrown into the lake of fire along with death and hell, and then there will be no more tears, no more pain and death in all God's holy mountain.
Creation restored. It's all there for the reading.
I used the spelling of hadees Zodiates uses.
Hadees (or Sheol OT) was the dwelling place of the righteous and unrighteous dead before the resurrection of Christ. These places seem to be separated as in the story of Abraham’s bosom. The place where the righteous are, is also referred to as paradise.
Hell is the eternal Hell, Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, where the devil and this angels are delivered up unto.
What I like about Zohiades is not only that he uses many proof texts, but he is also very conservative in his conclusions. He often states something, “May be”, but that there is not sufficient scriptural proof to establish a doctrine.
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