How typically mormon, equating the very foundation of Christianity with works such as tithing!
I nominate Grig for....
Flying Inman Player of the Week!
Posted on 06/15/2011 9:09:38 AM PDT by Colofornian
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Temple Recommend Questions
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? 5 Do you live the law of chastity? 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel? 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? 10 Are you a full-tithe payer? 11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom? 12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations? 13 If you have previously received your temple endowment: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple? 14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been? 15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? |
Those ain't rocks; but BIBLE truth pointing out HERESY.
Placemarker
People who live in glass houses should not throw stones
History of John Calvin and tulip!
Presbyterian, predestination etc.,
The Murder of Michael Servetus Michael Servetus was a Christian living in the 1500’s who incurred the wrath of John Calvin and was murdered by him and his cronies for ...
www.bcbsr.com/topics/servetus.html
John Calvin (1509 to 1564) - By Miles Hodges
It was inevitable that Calvin should be drawn into this conflict (he had, after all on several occasions led the attack against the Anabaptists.) Calvin himself was ...
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Tithing is voluntary, no extortion is used. The church has no obligation to report anything more than what they do, and projects like that are not funded by the donations made by members.
Anybody who just can stand seeing my church prosper in any way are going to have to learn to live with disappointment.
Well, as I understand your beliefs:
a) if you don’t accept Christ as your Savior you don’t go to heaven
b) if you don’t accept Christ as your Savior you will be damned and burn in hell for all eternity
Do you then accuse God of using extortion then to ‘force’ us to accept Christ?
The choice to accept Christ, or to pay tithing, are all choices based on faith. All choices have consequences, but in this case the consequences are pretty much limited to what comes after this life. Nobody is going to come burn you at the stake unless you accept Christ, and nobody is going to threaten your life or property if you choose to not pay tithing. Your accusation is silly.
If you don’t have faith in Christ, the ‘threat’ of hell and damnation is meaningless, likewise if you don’t believe the claims of my church then why would you care about holding a temple recommend? Conversely, people who have faith in the church will seek on their own volition to obtain the blessing that come from living the gospel, and people who have faith in Christ will on their own volition seek to follow him.
When the end comes, I hope I’ll be Christ-like enough to not gloat as you eat crow over how wrong you are about us.
I’ve never met any Mormon who thinks like that. It’s always the case that we feel blessed beyond what we deserve to be members of this church, and we want as many others to share in that blessing as possible.
You (or whoever came up with that list) must have a real inferiority complex to come up with that stuff.
UNLESS you want your precious golden ticket to godhood Grig, and for those who aspire for that golden ticket - like being married in a temple (or EVEN attending a wedding). That is the definition of extortion grig.
The church has no obligation to report anything more than what they do, and projects like that are not funded by the donations made by members.
Yep, as "transparent" as the 0bama administration eh. Cook the books, launder the money as long as they don't get caught. Keep the sheeple in the dark.
Anybody who just can stand seeing my church prosper in any way are going to have to learn to live with disappointment.
Filthy lucre grig. Going to line the pockets of mormon contractors in SLC.
How typically mormon, equating the very foundation of Christianity with works such as tithing!
I nominate Grig for....
Flying Inman Player of the Week!
Why do you think that a person who believes what the church teaches but loves their money more than they love God, and who lacks the faith to obey a very simple commandment (which actually promises that those who keep it will be blessed for it) should be entitled to the greatest blessings available through the church?
Paying tithing is a test of faith. Personally I find it a very easy test and I would rather have the blessings that come from paying tithing then the money I give as tithing (and I’m not talking about anything temple related there). I felt that way long, long before I was married or even old enough to get a temple recommend. Tithing is a true principle and those who practice it in faith find that out for themselves by experience.
And it seems pretty hypocritical for people to get all outraged about not getting something they don’t want because they won’t do something they don’t want to do.
The temple and it’s ordinances belong to the church, and the church has every right to set the requirements for obtaining them. Your opinion of the requirements is of no concern to the church. If you call it extortion however, then by that same standard shopkeepers are extortionists for not handing you their stuff for free, schools are extortionists for not handing out a passing marks unless the student turns in homework, tests and exams that meet the standard, and God Himself is an extortionist for only letting those into heaven that meet His standard.
The more you guys talk, the more you look like class-envy socialist bigots.
#1 Force? Sorry..."no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3)...Sorry, Grig. You or I don't even get the "credit" for accepting Christ.
#2 You "mis-time" the beginning point of God's condemnation. The so-called "threat" of hell that you make it out to be is not some new condemnation introduced. Or have you not read John 3:18...you know, the verse that comes two after John 3:16?
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned ALREADY because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:18)
A weak human analogy would be if once upon a time you were married, and somebody asks you, "What if your spouse threatens to condemn and divorce you?" Well, if you were already divorced because that spouse condemned you, what new "threat" would that be?
#3 Is a judge who has the right to levy jail time "extorting" somebody just convicted of crimes & mayhem? Really? Is that the way you would present the best judge on earth? Is that your portrayal, too, of our Heavenly Father and of His Son as our Judge? Really?
Allow me then to "remind" you of our deserved wrath with a quick tour through the apostle Paul's letter to the Church @ Rome:
* The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness... (Romans 1:18)
* But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed...But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. (Romans 2:5,8)
* But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (Romans 3:5)
* What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:22)
And then Paul gets to the "Good News" about how God the Judge and Savior has dealt with His wrath:
* Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Romans 5:9)
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The choice to accept Christ, or to pay tithing, are all choices based on faith. All choices have consequences, but in this case the consequences are pretty much limited to what comes after this life.
Sorry...but I don't think even the legalistic Pharisees condemned people to no eternal life with the Father if they didn't give alms or tithes!
Nobody is going to come burn you at the stake unless you accept Christ, and nobody is going to threaten your life or property if you choose to not pay tithing. Your accusation is silly.
Strawman. I never talked about the "hear & now" consequences that Mormon leaders threaten their "sheep" with...it's the long-term supposed consequences they dish out...and it's held over the very family relationships they hold most dear...including even an in-the-presence lockout from Heavenly Father threat.
...people who have FAITH IN THE CHURCH will seek on their own volition to obtain the blessing that come from living the gospel, and people who have faith in Christ will on their own volition seek to follow him.
Faith in the church? Are you kidding me? (My faith isn't even in the earthly Body of Christ, His Church!) You're just like First President Marion G. Romney, who in the early 1960s at a General Conference declared that the Mormon church was "the truth, the way, and the life" -- substituting the Mormon church for Jesus Christ in John 14:6 as the object of faith. Sorry, but that's idolatry! Repent!
Nothing new in that. Just substitute "Joseph Smith" for "church".
Yep, class envy accusation by a mormon...how revealing.
Your "class envy" accusations prompted the posting of this thread.
Strains Within the Mormon Subculture. (Attitude of Superiority)
“The temple and it’s ordinances belong to the church, and the church has every right to set the requirements for obtaining them. “
That is exactly the problem with non-Christian cults. You put your finger on it Grig! It’s all about the cult.
In contrast, in Christianity, we have revelation from Christ about Christ. We put our eternal trust in Him. It is about Him.
We don’t make up worldly things, like temples, stakes, tithing statements, dead dunking, naked touching - all things that “belong” to your “church”. We don’t build shopping malls with peoples “tithes” - or buy luxury 5 star resorts in Hawaii. It’s about eternity, not worldly riches.
I appreciate your moment of transparency.
best,
ampu
Below are but a few documentation references from Mormonism sources showing this heresy:
Those who gain exaltation, having thus enjoyed the fullness of eternal progression, become like God. It should be realized that God is not progressing in knowledge, truth, virtue, wisdom, or any of the attributes of godliness. He has already gained these things in their fullness. But he is progressing in the sense that his creations increase, his dominions expand, his spirit offspring multiply, and more kingdoms are added to his domains. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 5-10.)"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, ... we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.132).
"Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith.... The matter that seems such a mystery is the statement that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man. This is one of the mysteries.... The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.10, 12).
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)
Smith's worldview of time as it pertains to the gods: Smith believed in a "beginning" that was operative before the Mormon plan to the create this world. The question becomes, who is the head of the Gods as pertains to this ‘council of gods?
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
Why do you think that a person who believes what the church teaches but loves their money more than they love God, and who lacks the faith to obey a very simple commandment (which actually promises that those who keep it will be blessed for it) should be entitled to the greatest blessings available through the church?
__________________________________________
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Will be blessed
Aint yet
Here again Joey Smith and his cohorts has corrupted the Word of God
As I recall the Christian Bible has something to say about that “person” also
Something about it being a curse to try to buy the power of God (blessing)
Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.” Acts 8:20-23
And what did the LORD Jesus Chr4ist say about the love of money and trying to bribe god with it...
“No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”
The Pharisees ande the Mormon CEOs, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.
He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight.Luke 16:13-15
And Isaiah said that the blessings of God are FREE.
In the Book of Isaiah God said
“Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare. Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David. Isaiah 55:1-3
Well, you know best the inward motivations as to why you tithe; I won't presume to know all that goes on there. Yet just in the little you revealed here, you twice indicate that the most prominent reason you tithe is to "be blessed for it" and "I would rather have the blessings that come".
Now I'm not saying we're not to recognize that we are indeed blessed for giving...but it's all a matter of degreed emphasis...and I twice see that you stressed that your key for giving was for what would accrue & boomerang back to you as "rebound blessings" vs. simply giving to be a blessing to others and to be used of God.
And, as we look in the larger context of Mormon living among temple Mormons, that's actually the very problem of good works at-large. If a temple Mormon is counting on their good works to grant them the privilege of living with Heavenly Father forever & becoming a god, then those very supposed "good works" become suspect even if they help others. If our motivations are to grant us self-glory in the end; those "good works" done for selfish reasons spoil inwardly like rotten apples in a barrel.
Wow! We just didn't know that the church wasn't to operate as dispensers of God's grace. We should have known, coming from a Mormon trying to merit and earn his way into God's presence forever, that there should be a price tag on God's grace beyond the price tag of Christ's body and blood shed on the cross.
But leave it to Mormons to constantly "dis-grace" God, His Gospel, and the Bible by attempting to redefine it as something other than meritless. (It's just those Mormon leaders who have constantly drilled "worthy" this and "worthy" that into their sheep that they can't help but reinforce the notion that the Mormon church has a so-called "right" to put a price tag on grace...you might as just well sell indulgences...maybe if you offer them for 9.5% of somebody's income -- vs. 10% -- they'll consider that a "bargain" & buy them up from you!)
Otherwise, Grig...you need to start celebrating Christmas & b'days @ your house the Mormon theological way: make your kids or future kids & grandkids earn & merit & "worth-ify" all your gifts to them...put requirements & a price tag on them...say maybe, 10% of their allowances?
Blah blah blah, bottom line is that because a choice has a consequence doesn’t automatically mean extortion is taking place. If it did then God uses extortion too.
“it’s the long-term supposed consequences they dish out...and it’s held over the very family relationships they hold most dear”
If somebody doesn’t believe those consequences exist they have no reason to fear losing anything. If the do belive those consequences exist then they must also believe the church really is the kingdom of God on earth and the presidents of the church true prophets of God, and that would mean the things taught by the church about tithing are true and that the standard for temple worthiness is from God, not man. Why should a person in deliberate rebellion against what God has commanded receive God’s greatest blessing? It isn’t a matter of extortion, it is a matter of faith and having the integrity to live according to what you know is true.
Nobody is ever shamed into paying it, nobody does any account to determine if you are actually paying 10% and if it is of the net or the gross income. It is between you and God and all you let the Bishop know is if you
“Faith in the church?”
Yes, faith (ie: belief) that the church is what it claims to be. It takes faith in Christ to gain salvation, but you can have faith in other people or groups, believing they are good and trustworthy. You appear to have faith in the Bible for example since you claim to believe what it says.
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