Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.
A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.
The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.
This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.
So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.
Or are the folks in heaven to not have the presence of God?
Also, how does Jesus Christ sit at the right hand of the Father if they are just MODES of each other? Is God beside Himself?
Ok, so private interpretation is wrong according to you?
If I were you, I'd be saying "Thank God for the LCMS Lutheran doctrine."
I am being a bit subtle and careful with my story. As a teenager it would have been appropriate and in agreement for me to say Thank God for the LCMS Lutheran doctrine. Today I see my church's and my former idolization of the doctrine an issue that lead directly to my experiences.
Today I disagree with areas of the doctrine especially replacement theology.
My drinking time may have been in a large part due to the collapse of my faith in the LCMS doctrine idol. Praise God that Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ is on a firm foundation that transcends denominations.
Truly, we can make "idols" of all kinds of things including doctrines of men.
Praise God for leading you to discern His own words and direct your devotion to Himself.
Getting back to Lutheran rules. What would a God pleasing result be, according to the rules and book of Concord, if the Pastor went into a coma? I am talking about removal because He is unable to serve. This rule is dangerous. I would guess it is in most Lutheran Church constitutions in America. Is it in the Book of Concord? What is the standard for unable to serve?
Heresy is an obvious reason for removal of a Pastor. Let's say P#4 believed in the separate roles of Israel and the church, which he does not BTW, Is this cause for removal due to heresy? Criminal behavior is also a good standard to remove a Pastor IMO.
Yes, they do believe that the Gospels and the Book of Hebrews, etc. are just for the Jews. Only some of the Pauline Epistles do they acknowledge.
Who? I'm not seeing who, in the context. Not all dispensationalists, to my understanding, chop up the scriptures that severely.
I do, AG, if not enough.
marbren wrote:
“My life experience includes antisemitism because my Father was antisemitic, and my church taught me about, how the church took over Israel in God’s plan. I was very proud of this. I am no longer antisemitic because of God’s grace. I no longer am an alcoholic because of God’s grace.”
If you were anti-semitic, there may be some extenuating circumstances for that, but in the end the fault lies squarely on you. The sins of the fathers may indeed be passed to their children, but they remain sins, sins of whomever it is who commits them. In the same way, if you were an alcoholic, it may be that the pattern of alcoholism was one into which you were born. It may even be that alcoholism (this, it seems to me, is the awful truth of the matter) is an inclination into which a person is born. But if you fall victim to it and become the drunkard, the sin is yours. This is the awful, even frightening, consequence of original sin and the fallenness of humanity. This is why also sin cannot be escaped by the will of man, it is wholly inbred, permeating our very being. It required and requires a power outside of ourselves to overcome. It requires an out-of-this-world Savior.
If you were anti-semitic and an alcoholic, blame no one but yourself. Do not blame your father. Do not blame the LC-MS. Man up, and blame yourself. Which is another way of saying, repent. You are speaking in a way that is so typical of the psycho-therapeutic deism that has come to shape and define American Christianity.
As for the rest, I am not a member of the LC-MS, nor ever have I been. I don’t know what they have to say about such things, although I could guess pretty accurately. Nevertheless guesses are not the same as knowledgeable and true answers. You should go to work yourself and find out the facts from reputable and official sources.
Finally, you keep referring to “Lutheran rules.” I don’t recognize this kind of language. Lutherans don’t discuss right and wrong, sin and righteousness in the category of “rules.” That smacks of another perspective, one far closer to Geneva than to Wittenberg.
I think you need to become familiar with your own church body’s realities. That is my advice to you.
No doubt, but I think in reality and in truth, we have laid to rest the idea that the LCMS 'idolizes' its doctrine. Re-read Luther's Small Catechism, and honestly say where he places the responsibility for anything good that comes from him. Read again where he credits his actions or work. Oh wait, one can't find that part, because it isn't there. Read again the meaning of the creeds, where in there is the human input? The meaning to the Lord's Prayer, where is the explanation of the good that comes to believers? It isn't in the believer, it is the Grace of God. Remembrance of Baptism? Drown the old Adam. Are there sinners in LCMS? Absolutely and I count myself chief amongst them, but by the Grace of God I have access to repent and start over availing myself of that hateful 'idol' doctrine.
Today I see my church's and my former idolization of the doctrine an issue that lead directly to my experiences.
Inferrring the church's 'idolization' where it doesn't exist, confirming your own. The question remains with a common thread; whose idolatry? whose misconception? whose bitterness and why?
My drinking time may have been in a large part due to the collapse of my faith in the LCMS doctrine idol.
May have, when does one finally take resposibility for their own actions? 56/66/whenever/ or when I have no longer a scapegoat to hang my failing upon? Reflective listening is one thing, when does one engage in reflective thinking? When one is done with reflexive lashing out? Or it that not holistically possible? The time for attaching blame to something outside oneself needs to come to an end, it is big boy pants time, wipe one's own nose and come to grips with the real problem, use a mirror if one's interested.
Praise God that Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ is on a firm foundation
Skip the 'on' and you're are rightly oriented.
Let's say P#4 believed in the separate roles of Israel and the church, which he does not BTW, Is this cause for removal due to heresy?
Believe it or not marbren, pastors are held to a higher standard as a result of their calling. If a pastor believed as you stated, he has violated his vow because he hasn't held to the Lutheran confessions as well as not holding to the LCMS' positions on that subject. Heresy? who cares? he would have violated his promise of fidelity to preach and teach LCMS doctrine which he has already affirmed. Removal? an honest faithful man would remove himself when he can no longer fulfill the requirements of his post.
What would a God pleasing result be, according to the rules and book of Concord, if the Pastor went into a coma? I am talking about removal because He is unable to serve.
Will he ever come out? Since God alone can know, it would be well to have a vacancy pastor assume his position until he is able to return. In the honest, and sincere belief that he won't, calling another to replace him isn't a stretch. How long would you wait?
I am talking about removal because He is unable to serve.
So am I.
This rule is dangerous.
No "IMHO" or are you past that?
I would guess it is in most Lutheran Church constitutions in America.
It isn't in ours, maybe it should be.
Is it in the Book of Concord?
I doubt it, but then I haven't looked. It seems self-evident and the drafters of the confessional documents are not likely to have bothered with something like this, this self evident. In the 15th and 16th century, if you were in a coma, they probably had already started digging the hole. Only recently, has any other consideration or idea became palusible. Christian liberty would apply. Apparently to some the practicality of this seems to be an undie twister.
What is the standard for unable to serve?
I would have to believe, that a coma would qualify, how would a coma sufferer consecrate the elements? baptize? preach? counsel? hear confession and provide absolution? teach confirmation? new member classes? etc. IOW be a serving pastor? Is death the only condition that qualifies in your eyes?
BTW, this applies to any office of the church, not just the clergy. Reflectively think about that for a moment or so. Do you know anyone in that situation? What confusion would not doing so spread amongst the flock one is charged with? What does God's Word say regarding those in a shepherding capacity who would instead lead astray those in his charge. Those passages needs no 'lensing', and picture a rather stark reality.
In what way? Inability to serve, means just that. If you can't serve, where is the danger of replacing you with one that can? Should the spiritual needs of a congregation go unfilled because they don't have ready access to a pastor? Are you proposing all pastors remain forever at their first call?
Much wisdom in your post. It is very true that we need to be responsible for our actions. For me this exercise has been backward looking at what was. Is it a good idea? I do like to live in the Now where we can find God. The problem is this book I am thinking about it is based on my past experience. I am not sure I am blaming as much as describing where I came from. That sound defensive and I hate that but Oh well. You may be right there may still be some bitterness. If I have not forgiven that is an issue. I ask Our Heavenly Father to forgive me like I forgive others in the Lord's prayer.
P#4 has taught me a lot about loving people as they are. My Dad is a good example. I am finally starting to understand why I can never gain his approval and that is OK. My Dad was traumatized and a refugee in WW2. He had to be on his own at a very young age. His life was very successful but focused on himself. That is OK! It has freed me from the need for approval. The only approval I need comes from my Lord Jesus Christ. I certainly am free from approval needs on FR! LOL
I agree, my beliefs may be grounds for ex communication in the LCMS. P#4 is not me however. In my Church I defer to his teaching. On FR In am free. He is orthodox Lutheran. Who does the Elder serve? The congregation or the Pastor or both? Is it a calling like the Pastor? Does the Holy Spirit call a Pastor to the local Church?
In many ways Pastors are in a bondage to doctrines of men.
I did believe until a week ago that the LCMS was heterodox by their actions. For sure I know the other group in the schism is heterodox and the DP is heterodox. The rest of the synod is now for me I do not know, maybe we shall see.
Please see my post 895
I agree
How long would you wait?
As long as God wants.
No "IMHO" or are you past that?
Yes good idea let's add IMHO
It isn't in ours, maybe it should be.
NO DON'T! It is in ours and was a big part of the schism.
Unless you have more, unlikely eschatology isn't a salvation issue. If you decide to preach it so to speak and defy the admonition to keep it to yourself, then you should be subject to church discipline. It would make for a fine ending to your book.
On FR In am free.
The rest of the week one lives a lie, great way to live.
As to elders, they assist the pastor in serving the congregation. The calling isn't analogous to the office of public ministry, nevertheless, a wise man would prayerfully consider the resposibility and whether they are able to handle it with the grace of God. Someone who is conflicted over doctrine would be a poor choice for elder. Re: The Holy Spirit's calling, yes ideally that is the way it should work, and probably does most of the time. God knows. However, congregations and the pastorate contain sinners.
In many ways Pastors are in a bondage to doctrines of men.
Hardly, after 4 years of intensive training, do you think they get a mimeographed sheet of doctrine on the way out of the sem? If they find themselves in 'bondage' they should quit, that is if they have any personal integrity and responsibility. The undershepherd faces the Shepherd one day and will have to give an account. I doubt saying I was in 'bondage' will cut it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.