Jordan Battles to Regain 'Priceless' Christian Relics

BBC ^ | 3/29/11 | Robert Pigott

[marshmallow]

They could be the earliest Christian writing in existence, surviving almost 2,000 years in a Jordanian cave. They could, just possibly, change our understanding of how Jesus was crucified and resurrected, and how Christianity was born.

A group of 70 or so "books", each with between five and 15 lead leaves bound by lead rings, was apparently discovered in a remote arid valley in northern Jordan somewhere between 2005 and 2007.

A flash flood had exposed two niches inside the cave, one of them marked with a menorah or candlestick, the ancient Jewish religious symbol.

A Jordanian Bedouin opened these plugs, and what he found inside might constitute extremely rare relics of early Christianity.

That is certainly the view of the Jordanian government, which claims they were smuggled into Israel by another Bedouin.

The Israeli Bedouin who currently holds the books has denied smuggling them out of Jordan, and claims they have been in his family for 100 years.

Jordan says it will "exert all efforts at every level" to get the relics repatriated.

Incredible claims

The director of the Jordan's Department of Antiquities, Ziad al-Saad, says the books might have been made by followers of Jesus in the few decades immediately following his crucifixion.

"They will really match, and perhaps be more significant than, the Dead Sea Scrolls," says Mr Saad.

"Maybe it will lead to further interpretation and authenticity checks of the material, but the initial information is very encouraging, and it seems that we are looking at a very important and significant discovery, maybe the most important discovery in the history of archaeology."

[Elsie]

A group of 70 or so "books", each with between five and 15 lead leaves bound by lead rings, was apparently discovered in a remote arid valley in northern Jordan somewhere between 2005 and 2007.

It was WEST Jordan and a certain MOhamed Smith discovered them.

The caractors appear to be old or Restored Egyptian...

[Elsie]

A group of 70 or so "books", each with between five and 15 lead leaves bound by lead rings, was apparently discovered in a remote arid valley in northern Jordan somewhere between 2005 and 2007.

How?

That demonic deception didn't appear until centuries later.

[Elsie]

Uh...

Lemme try again:

<If the Jordanians want them that badly, they probably discredit Islam.

How?

That demonic deception didn't appear until centuries later.

[Elsie]

Dang!

You AIN’T dead!

[Elsie]

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***The authenticity of this method of storing records in no way validates the Records found in America,***

I see your sarcasm but at least THESE LEAD plates are in our hot little hands, not like some so-called golden plates.

And we have people who can translate them without seer stones and they are NOT in “reformed Egyptian”.

[Siena Dreaming]

This is quite an interesting story.

Some intriguing tidbits...why were these finding not announced when they were discovered (2005-2007)?

Strangely, there is no mention of where exactly in Jordan they were discovered.

It is thought that early Christians who took heed of Jesus' warnings in Mark 13 fled Jerusalem before its destruction in 70 AD.

Some people think they fled to Pella in modern-day Jordan. Where these book found in ancient Pella or near there? VERY interesting.

[Pharmboy]

Gold or lead books are heavy...must have taken a few people to tote those around, eh?

[propertius]

Agreed. I read somewhere that the symbols of Sukkot depictions on the cover suggest they were probably related to the Bar Kochba Revolt or could be the secret writings of the Talmudic mystic Shimon bar Yachai.

[propertius]

The code too would suggest the codices are Kabbalist, though early Christians did use code too, of course.

[DelphiUser]

I wish I could say I am sorry to disappoint, but I love the truth so I won't. I will say it's a pathetic thing to say about anyone.

[jjotto]

From the article:

Their leaves - which are mostly about the size of a credit card - contain text in Ancient Hebrew, most of which is in code.

If the relics are of early Christian origin rather than Jewish, then they are of huge significance.

That's quite a big "If"!

Wouldn't Christian stuff be written in Greek or Aramaic?

[Pharmboy]

Exactly! That's what puzzled me...why not Greek...or Aramaic. I posed the question to a boyhood friend of mine (we grew up together in NYC and he married an Israeli woman 30 years ago and moved there) who has become an amateur scholar on ancient Hebrew. Here's the exchange:

ME: But please explain why those Christians/Jews at the time used ancient Hebrew...I thought that the Aramaic alphabet was used then...

Him:Right, but the replacement didn't occur suddenly; there were still those who knew and used the ancient script for some scriptural writings. Another example of this is the WaYiqrah (Levitcus) scroll that was entirely written in the ancient script and discovered along with the other Dead Sea Scrolls. Additionally, in some of the scrolls, the name of God (Yahweh) was written in the ancient script while the remainder of the texts was in Aramaic script. Finally, all the coins minted by Bar Cokhbah had the ancient script engraved on them.

Nowadays, in commemoration of these coins, the Israeli one shekel and ten shekel coins have a bit of the ancient script engraved on them.

Back to me:Perhaps they used the ancient script to give it more gravity.

[Elsie]

And we have people who can translate them without seer stones and they are NOT in “reformed Egyptian”.

It seems that we havew a DOUBTER here!!

---

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story. No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

---

 

Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

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*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

---

Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

     .
 

     .
 

      .

 

What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

[Elsie]

And to run through the woods carry a big thing like that, while being chased, is a superhuman trick as well!

[Elsie]

I will say it's a pathetic thing to say about anyone.

Someday MY responses will cease, and you all can assume that what has happened to me.

I won't be offended as easily.

[Elsie]

I will say it's a pathetic thing to say about anyone.

Would you prefer, "Look what the cat drug in!"?

[Elsie]

Wouldn't Christian stuff be written in Greek or Aramaic?

Remember, "We heard them all in our OWN language!"

---

(Maybe it is written in Reformed Berean.)

[Elsie]

Perhaps they used the ancient script to give it more gravity.

Like GOD told Joseph Smith to use 1611 English in the BoM to give IT more; uh; gravity.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

Ah yes! Here it is!