Posted on 03/25/2011 11:20:21 AM PDT by WPaCon
This will be a series of seven posts.
Particularly interesting will be Monday's topic of Islam.
Ping
I have read Belloc on this and many other topics.
He was brilliant,especially is his critique of the greed of democracy and false liberty
from : MY CATHOLIC FAITH
71. Schism and Heresy
What is schism; and what is heresy? --Schism is the refusal to submit to the authority of the Pope; heresy is the formal denial or doubt by a baptized person of any revealed truth of the Catholic Faith.
When someone does a long explanation on something that's simple, it raises a big red flag, that says they are maneuvering around something that they can't say.That's what the posting of this threads long article smells like to me.
Why the long explanation?
In Islam, Heresy and blasphemy are very dangerous. In Pakistan 2 high level officials have been assassinated for attempting to eliminate or speaking against Pakistan’s severe blasphemy law.
Not all of the world's knowledge can be imparted to an individual while he stands on one foot. The Catechism is longer than a couple of paragraphs, you know. Was Belloc in schism with the Church because he knew better than the Church what was what? Or are you confusing Belloc with the likes of Mel Gibson?
One of the greatest wasters of effort is the fact that since we are dealing with writings thousands of years old and translated through several languages with incomplete documentation, we had better get our definitions straight. And leaning on SSPX misstatements is not the way to define Church teachings.
Know better than the Church? Give me a break. ONLY GOD KNOWS BETTER THAN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! I've read all of Bellocs books. What exactly did he write that "knew better than the Church"?
My question was, why post such a long article for something that's defined by a few words in any Catholic dictionary?
You are an Eastern Orthodox if I remember correctly, is that why you jumped at my comment?
What is schism; and what is heresy? --Schism is the refusal to submit to the authority of the Pope; heresy is the formal denial or doubt by a baptized person of any revealed truth of the Catholic Faith.
In the section on Islam, Belloc argues that Islam is actually a Christian heresy, not that I necessarily agree with him.
It’s not about heresy in Islam, if that’s what you thought.
But yes, heresy and blasphemy can be very dangerous in Islam.
I’m just posting each chapter of his book.
If you want to know why Belloc has such a detailed definition of heresy, you’d have to ask him.
Maybe he thought it important to give such a detailed description of heresy, because that is the topic of his whole book.
Or maybe he wouldn’t have much of a book if he used short definitions.
Verdugo, are you an SSPXer or sedevacantist?
He is brilliant, and I do need to read more of him.
However, I’m not really inclined to agree with him on the whole distributism thingy.
Are there any subjects you’d disagree with him on?
“”I’m not really inclined to agree with him on the whole distributism thingy.””
Many people don’t understand distributism,dear friend.It’s a far better moral system. The system we have in the USA is anti Catholic in many ways. The abusive usury that leads to greed is evil and anti Christian
Here is a great article for you
Part #1
http://distributist.blogspot.com/2005/03/distributist-apologetics-series-i.html
Part#2
http://distributist.blogspot.com/2007/01/capitalism-and-catholic-economics-part.html
Thanks for the links.
I have to admit, I only have a very vague understanding of dstributism.
I don’t have the time to check out the links right now, but I’ll be sure to look at them later.
Here is my very undereducated take on distributism and free markets right now. Feel free to correct or dispute any of this:
1) Free market economies have been wildly successful, unlike anything ever seen before or since.
2) Distributism requires an authority to distribute the means of production, likely a government authority. I see that as a negative.
3) I love how in capitalism it is the free choice of people to give charitably. Charity is much more powerful when it is freely given. I am not saying that this is not a trait of distributism, either.
Have you read the book the Church and the Market by Thomas E. Woods?
I haven’t myself, but I’d be interested in your opinion on it if you have.
Have a nice day.
If you reread my post, hopefully I was able to formulate a statement that attempted to portray Belloc as a loyal Catholic as opposed to those in willing schism with the Church - Gibson was my example; I suppose that Lefebvre is another.
My question was, why post such a long article for something that's defined by a few words in any Catholic dictionary?
In order to fully understand the history, significance, development and ramifications of the term.
You are an Eastern Orthodox if I remember correctly, is that why you jumped at my comment?
You remember improperly. I consider the Bishop of Rome to be my bishop.
Heresy is not doubt; heresy the proclamation of belief or doctrine at variance with the beliefs or doctrine of the Church. When the saints had doubts, they did not stray into heresy, they doubted, they did not stray into heresy. Private doubts or, in the case of Mother Teresa, a feeling of abandonment, is not heresy. I have a feeling that reaquaintance with the Catechism might do wonders.
“”1) Free market economies have been wildly successful, unlike anything ever seen before or since.””
You might be able to say that 50 years ago but It has progressed into excessive greed in driving power into the hands of the immoral elite that have crushed the small and local businesses of commodities,etc... and consolidated certain industries to the rich where prices can be controlled unfairly to eliminate any competition and enslave the consumer.
“”2) Distributism requires an authority to distribute the means of production, likely a government authority. I see that as a negative.””
Capitalism require authority too,dear fried
You have an immoral authority right now with Capitalism that controls prices with corruption through politics etc..
Distributism goal is private ownership and breaks things down to supporting local business and communities with the moral authority being Church teaching on economics and morality based on love of neighbor where everyone works for a common moral good-which is opposite of the common good of types of socialism which is purely materialistic
I suggest you read Pope Leo XIII;s encyclical
RERUM NOVARUM. I think you will will agree with it
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON CAPITAL AND LABOR
Excerpt..
Private ownership, as we have seen, is the natural right of man, and to exercise that right, especially as members of society, is not only lawful, but absolutely necessary. “It is lawful,” says St. Thomas Aquinas, “for a man to hold private property; and it is also necessary for the carrying on of human existence.”” But if the question be asked: How must one’s possessions be used? - the Church replies without hesitation in the words of the same holy Doctor: “Man should not consider his material possessions as his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when others are in need. Whence the Apostle with, ‘Command the rich of this world... to offer with no stint, to apportion largely.’”(12) True, no one is commanded to distribute to others that which is required for his own needs and those of his household; nor even to give away what is reasonably required to keep up becomingly his condition in life, “for no one ought to live other than becomingly.”(13) But, when what necessity demands has been supplied, and one’s standing fairly taken thought for, it becomes a duty to give to the indigent out of what remains over. “Of that which remaineth, give alms.”(14) It is a duty, not of justice (save in extreme cases), but of Christian charity - a duty not enforced by human law. But the laws and judgments of men must yield place to the laws and judgments of Christ the true God, who in many ways urges on His followers the practice of almsgiving - ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive”;(15) and who will count a kindness done or refused to the poor as done or refused to Himself - “As long as you did it to one of My least brethren you did it to Me.”(16) To sum up, then, what has been said: Whoever has received from the divine bounty a large share of temporal blessings, whether they be external and material, or gifts of the mind, has received them for the purpose of using them for the perfecting of his own nature, and, at the same time, that he may employ them, as the steward of God’s providence, for the benefit of others. “He that hath a talent,” said St. Gregory the Great, “let him see that he hide it not; he that hath abundance, let him quicken himself to mercy and generosity; he that hath art and skill, let him do his best to share the use and the utility hereof with his neighbor.”(17)
“You might be able to say that 50 years ago but It has progressed into excessive greed in driving power into the hands of the immoral elite that have crushed the small and local businesses of commodities,etc... and consolidated certain industries to the rich where prices can be controlled unfairly to eliminate any competition and enslave the consumer.”
Couldn’t this be solved by eliminating monopolies as is sometimes done already?
“Capitalism require authority too,dear fried
You have an immoral authority right now with Capitalism that controls prices with corruption through politics etc..”
I wouldn’t say government subsidies and taxes are part of capitalism. They are contrary to free markets, and I wouldn’t call our nation completely capitalist, especially now.
I read the excerpt Rerum Novarum, and from what I read, capitalism seems fine. I will take the time later to read the whole thing, and maybe it will seem more against capitalism. But, from what I have heard of Rerum Novarum, it is not totally against capitalism.
I’m not trying to be difficult arguing against you (especially since I know next to nothing about distributism), but instead just trying to understand the pros and cons of distributism and free markets.
Have you read the book from Thomas E. Woods? I may need to eventually, but it seems to say that free markets are fine and perfectly Catholic. Do you have any opinions on the book or Woods?
Thanks for your kind responses.
Of course,but the monopolies are so powerful now they control the political system
I wouldn’t say government subsidies and taxes are part of capitalism. They are contrary to free markets, and I wouldn’t call our nation completely capitalist, especially now.
The excess greed brought about by certain lack of immoralities allowed in Capitalism breed people with the power to corrupt government in their favor.
from what I have heard of Rerum Novarum, it is not totally against capitalism.
Nor am I per se. I am against what Capitalism becomes when it becomes a self centered sort of cult that allows mass wealth and power in the hands of evil people for love of money and control.
Have you read the book from Thomas E. Woods?
No, but i will add it to my list,thank you for recommending it
I wish you a Blessed Evening!
“certain lack of immoralities allowed in Capitalism breed people with the power to corrupt government in their favor.”
What are these immoralities allowed in Capitalism?
“I am against what Capitalism becomes when it becomes a self centered sort of cult that allows mass wealth and power in the hands of evil people for love of money and control.”
Are you saying Capitalism causes people to become too materialistic? If so, aren’t people materialistic in every economic system? Because Capitalism causes virtually everyone to eventually be wealthy, wouldn’t people in a capitalist society be less focused on wealth than people who have to constantly worry about trying to get by?
“No, but i will add it to my list,thank you for recommending it”
I have to warn you that I have not read it and am not sure if it is any good. I was just wondering if you thought Woods’s conclusions in favor of free markets were wrong and if so, how.
“I wish you a Blessed Evening!”
You, too.
Thanks for the links. I’ll have some interesting reading to do this weekend.
The Protestant Heresy
The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene
Americanism, Then and Now: Our Pet Heresy (encyclical of Pope Leo XIII)
Heresies then and now: ancient Christian heresies practiced in modern times
The Plain Truth About The Baptist Bride Heresy
Balthasar, Hell, and Heresy: An Exchange (is it compatable with the Catholic faith?)
Know Your Heresies
The Rev. John Piper: an interesting look at "heresy vs. schism"
Pietism as an Ecclesiological Heresy
Heresy
Arian Heresy Still Tempts, Says Cardinal Bertone (Mentions Pelagianism As Well)
Catholic Discussion] Church group stays faithful (to heresy!)
An overview of modern anti-Trinitarian heresies
Where heresy and dissent abound [Minnesota]
Gnostic Gospels - the heresy entitled "Gnosticism."
Christian mavericks find affirmation in ancient heresies
The So-Called ‘Gospel’ of Judas: Unmasking an Ancient Heresy
Benedict XVI Heresies and Errors
Donatism (Know your heresies)
The Heresy of Mohammed (Chapter 4, The Great Heresies)
Father & Son Catholic Writers Tag-Team Old & New Heresies
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