Posted on 03/12/2011 6:27:13 AM PST by Gamecock
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Romans 3:28 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:4-5
I was going through some of my old study notes today and came across this short article by Dr. R. C. Sproul. In reading it through again, I was reminded about the magnitude of the issue as it relates to the very Gospel itself, and the vital differences that still remain between the two sides. Rome believes that justification is by grace, through faith and because of Christ. What Rome does not believe is that justification is by grace alone, or through faith alone, or by Christ alone. For Rome, justification is by grace plus merit, through faith plus works; by Christ plus the sinner's contribution of inherent righteousness. In contrast, the Reformers called the Church back to the one true Biblical Gospel: Salvation is by God's grace alone, received through faith alone, because of Christ alone, based on the Scriptures alone, to the Glory of God alone. Dr. Sproul's article (below) brings out the clear distinctions between the Reformers and Rome concerning justification - which as Martin Luther declared, is the article upon which the church stands or falls. - John Samson
Dr. Sproul writes:
At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation or Protestant theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified, but about the very meaning of justification itself. Reformed theology insists that the biblical doctrine of justification is forensic in nature.
What does this mean?
In the popular jargon of religion, the word forensic is used infrequently. The word is not foreign, however, to ordinary language. It appears daily in the news media, particularly with reference to criminal investigations and trials. We hear of "forensic evidence" and "forensic medicine" as we listen to the reports of criminologists, coroners, and pathologists. Here the term forensic refers to the judicial system and judicial proceedings. The term forensic is also used to describe events connected with public speaking. Schools hold forensic contests or events that feature formal debates or the delivery of speeches. The link between these ordinary usages of forensic and its theological use is that justification has to do with a legal or judicial matter involving some type of declaration. We can reduce its meaning to the concept of legal declaration.
The doctrine of justification involves a legal matter of the highest order. Indeed it is the legal issue on which the sinner stands or falls: his status before the supreme tribunal of God. When we are summoned to appear before the bar of God's judgment, we face a judgment based on perfect justice. The presiding Judge is himself perfectly just. He is also omniscient, fully aware of our every deed, thought, inclination, and word. Measured by the standard of his canon of righteousness, we face the psalmist's rhetorical question that hints at despair: "If you, LORD, should mark iniquities, ...who could stand?" (Psalm 130:3 NKJV). The obvious answer to this query is supplied by the Apostle Paul: "There is none righteous, no, not one...." (Romans 3:10). God commands us to be holy. Our moral obligation coram Deo (before the face of God) is to live perfect lives. One sin mars that obligation and leaves us naked, exposed before divine justice. Once a person sins at all, a perfect record is impossible. Even if we could live perfectly after that one sin, we would still fail to achieve perfection. Our sin may be forgiven, but forgiveness does not undo the sin. The consequences of the sin may be removed, but the sin itself is not undone.
The Bible speaks figuratively about the sin being washed, cleansed, healed, and blotted out. The sin, which is scarlet, may become white as snow, the crimson may become like wool, in God's sight. The sin may be cast into the sea of forgetfulness or purged with hyssop. But these images describe an expiation for sin and divine forgiveness or remission of our sin. Our record does not change, but our guilt does. Hence Paul declares, "Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin" (Romans 4:8 NKJV). In our redemptive forgiveness God does not charge us with what we owe. He does not count our sins against us. If he did, no one (except Jesus) would ever escape his just wrath. No one but Christ would be able to stand before God's judgment. Again, God in his grace may regenerate us, sanctify us, and even glorify us. He might make us perfect in the future. He really does change the elect and will eventually make the justified totally and completely righteous. But even the perfected saint in heaven was once a sinner and has a track record that, apart from the grace of justification, would send him to hell. Thus, where temporal creatures are concerned, everyone who is once imperfect is always imperfect with respect to the whole scope of the person's individual history. This is what Thomas Aquinas meant when he asserted that justification is always of the impious (iustificatio impii). Righteous people have no need of justification, even as the healthy have no need of a physician.
Both Roman Catholic and Reformation theology are concerned with the justification of sinners. Both sides recognize that the great human dilemma is how unjust sinners can ever hope to survive a judgment before the court of an absolutely holy and absolutely just God. If we define forensic justification as a legal declaration by which God declares a person just and we leave it at that, we would have no dispute between Rome and Evangelicalism. Though Rome has an antipathy to the concept of forensic justification, this antipathy is directed against the Protestant view of it. In chapter 7 of the sixth session of the Council of Trent, Rome declared: "...not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure...." Here Rome is jealous to distinguish between being reputed just and actually being just, yet it is still true that God calls the baptismally regenerated just. That is, for Rome justification is forensic in that justification involves God's legal declaration. A person is justified when God declares that person just. The reason or the ground of that declaration differs radically between Roman Catholic and Reformed theology. But both agree that a legal declaration by God is made. Nor is it sufficient merely to say that Rome teaches that justification means "to make just," while Protestants teach that justification means "to declare just."
For Rome God both makes just and declares just. For Protestants God both makes just and declares just -- but not in the same way. For Rome the declaration of justice follows the making inwardly just of the regenerate sinner. For the Reformation the declaration of justice follows the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the regenerated sinner (Rom.4:4-8; 2 Cor. 5:21).
Great answer.
It has to do with our eternity Sal
At the cross ...Jesus defeated it..
Jesus dealt with our sin by His blood.. the problem with Catholics is they think it is THEIR war..it is one the natural man can never win..because even all their self righteousness and fasting and good works are sin before a Holy God God..
Our righteousness in IN CHRIST ..not ourself.. Praise God for that, because we would all fail badly
Exactly ...Mr R I have to wonder if you are on the march back to Rome???
If you would like a discussion on the canon of scripture please start a thread.. I would be more than happy to show you that the OT of Protestants is correct.. :)
Do you even know what "the love of Christ" is, Salvation? It is very interesting that you chose those particular words to warn others with. Eat another fish fillet and ponder what the meaning could possibly be.
“The vast majority of Reformed folk will shout what is plainly taught, and be quiet when Scripture is quiet.”
The vast majority of ‘reformed folk’ on these religion threads shout that we are saved by grace thru election, and that God gives life to those he has chosen so they can then believe. That is not found in scripture, and it contradicts the plain and express teaching of scripture.
The majority of reformed folk on these threads identify themselves as “whatever Catholics are not” instead of “Wherever Jesus leads”. They practice negative identity, proclaiming what they are not instead of who they are. Your denominations split off 500 years ago. Stop wallowing in 1500 AD and share the Good News.
As you know, I’m a Baptist, and part of the Southern Baptist Convention. Baptists are farther from Roman Catholic theology than reformed folk. For example, we don’t believe in infant baptism, but baptize on profession of faith.
We believe in proclaiming the Gospel:
17And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” - Luke 4
We may be born to sin, but we don’t have to die in our sins. God has proclaimed “liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed”.
And what must we do to be saved?
“31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.” - Acts 16
Frankly, I wish more on these threads would proclaim the Gospel, and fight the secular humanists, abortionists, homosexual activists, Islam and others who expressly reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
“So, you’ve got the whole sin thing licked, huh? / At the cross ...Jesus defeated it..”
” 10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.” - Ephesians 6
Doesn’t sound passive to me. Neither does it sound like we whip sin by our own might.
13For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.” - Galatians 5
Wrong. ALL "Reformed folk" on these religion threads shout that we are saved by grace thru election, and that God gives life to those he has chosen so they can then believe. That is a key tenant of Reformational theology because it is oh so clearly taught in Scripture, starting in Genesis and all the way through Revelation. We are not making this stuff up.
The majority of reformed folk on these threads identify themselves as “whatever Catholics are not” instead of “Wherever Jesus leads”.
Still wrong. Our doctrinal threads are clear about the distinctions, such as this thread. BTW, the Holy Spirit leads, it's His job. Each member of the Trinity has a role, the Holy Spirit leads. Bible says so.
Stop wallowing in 1500 AD and share the Good News.
This might be foreign to you, based on you posts so far, but doctrine drives practice. A solid understanding of God's sovereignty makes us confident in sharing the Good News. Want proof?
-William Carey, father of the modern missionary movement, a Particular Baptist, went to India. First convert took 7 years, but he rejoiced knowing that God brought him a convert and would bring more.
-The Great Awakening was brought about by the preaching of Calvinists.
-One of your flagship seminaries, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, was founded by a Calvinist J.P. Boyce and the current President, Al Mohler is, yup, a Calvinist.
-Ever sing Amazing Grace? Look at the words closely, they are Calvinistic in nature.
-R.C. Sproul, a dyed in the wool Presbyterian, has his messages translated into 60 languages, including Farsi, and are beamed all over the world.
-And the Presbyterian Church in America has more missionaries per capita, that the Southern Baptist Convention. In fact, I posted a thread earlier that shows what they are doing right now in Japan. The gentlemen in the thread has been serving in Japan for more than 20 years.
We know that God's elect are out there, that gives us great confidence that His word will go forth.
We believe in proclaiming the Gospel
Glad to hear that. So do we. We believe, as Jesus taught, that all of Scripture is about him. Reformed sermons teach just that.
By the way, your passage from Luke, is not the Gospel. It is a proclamation that He who was promised from the beginning has arrived.
The Gospel is this:
1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.Great passage. That is what I want exposited at my funeral. Even at my funeral I want the Gospel proclaimed, and not me.
Well, from what I can see, you’re in a pickle. If the Canon of the Jews (who rejected the NT) is correct, then you aren’t going to use the NT.
But you use a specific NT canon. Why is this? The Jews never said anything about the NT. Where did your NT canon come from?
The closer one gets to Rome's Pelagianism, the more one decries the doctrines of grace.
It never fails.
Me. Me. Me.
That is not true. Many Baptists whole-heartedly believe in free will which is the basis for Rome's theology.
The difference between adult baptism and infant baptism pales in comparison to the lie of free will and the impious denial of God's predestination of all things.
Arminianism really is the road back to Rome because it says men elect themselves by their own good works.
Just like Rome.
Elegant analogy.
The vast majority of Reformed folk will shout what is plainly taught, and be quiet when Scripture is quiet.
AMEN! That is Systematic Theology.
“ALL “Reformed folk” on these religion threads shout that we are saved by grace thru election, and that God gives life to those he has chosen so they can then believe. That is a key tenant of Reformational theology because it is oh so clearly taught in Scripture, starting in Genesis and all the way through Revelation. We are not making this stuff up.”
Then you will have no trouble citing the verses. Me? Paul wrote, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” and “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
When the jailer asks, “What must I do to be saved?”, Paul doesn’t respond, “Heretic! You can do nothing!” Paul replies, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.”
Indeed, when the Jews ask Jesus, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
And of course, Jesus said, “14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
Notice Jesus did not apply “Reformed folk” theology and say, “Whoever I’ve picked from before time will receive life, that he may believe”.
This is not open to debate. Scripture is excruciatingly clear: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
He COULD have said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever He chose before creation should not perish but have eternal life.” - but he didn’t.
You are so busy attacking Catholicism that you’ve lost sight of the Gospel - the GOOD NEWS: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
From the time of the Fall, man has been presented with a choice. 6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.” - Gen 4
If your missionaries preach that God chooses some to give life to that they may believe, then they are anathema.
“8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed...15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”
We are justified thru faith in Jesus. “we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ” - we are saved, not by grace thru election, but by grace thru faith.
There are 218 verses listed here, read them and repent:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4100&t=ESV
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Not, Whoever was chosen will believe and be baptized and be saved, but whoever was not chosen will be condemned.
The word of Calvin may say that, but God said something different, and you change the word of God at your peril.
Arminian grace, How strange the sound!
Salvation hinged on ME
I once was lost then turned around
Was blind then chose to see
What "grace" it is that calls for choice
Out of some good within?
The part that willed to heed God's voice
Proved stronger than my sin
Through many ardent gospel pleas
I sat with heart of stone
But then some hidden good in me
Propelled me toward my home
When we've been there ten thousand years
Because of what we've done
We've no less days to sing our praise
Than when we first begun
Then you will have no trouble citing the scripture that says that,
Scripture says we must be born again in order to understand the things of God; that the natural man cannot understand the things of God because they are foolishness to him.
Arminians believe the natural man can understand the things of God, obey and believe. Arminians believe men rebirth themselves; that they make themselves to differ.
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
Now is your cue to rewrite the verse and tell us it doesn't mean what it says it means.
We are saved by grace through faith, not grace through election.
You're muddling terms again. Men are saved by grace through faith; grace saves. Grace enables us to believe and is a free gift from God. Some get it and some don't.
Election is God's decision to give grace to whom He will and not for any foreseen good work in that person that would earn God's grace (or God would be in debt to men.)
God gives grace according to His own good pleasure. Those He redeems display His free mercy. Those He reprobates display His perfect justice.
And there will always be men who argue back to God - "Why hast thou made me thus?"
Election a heresy?
lol. Only to Rome and its lackeys.
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11
Salvation is God's call; not men's. Gratitude is our proper perspective, no matter how much some men want to boast of themselves.
"The preparation for receiving grace is the free election of God." -- John Calvin, (Antidote to the Council of Trent, quoting Augustine.)
Note whom Calvin is correcting. You're in dubious company, Mr. Rogers.
Are we saved by grace or by faith?
A simple A. or B. answer would be appreciated.
You are so busy attacking Catholicism that you’ve lost sight of the Gospel
Finally. The real motivation for a lot of this diversion becomes clear.
Rome has nothing to worry about from you, Mr. Rogers.
lol. A very true and catchy tune.
More’s the pity.
Notice Jesus did not apply “Reformed folk” theology and say, “Whoever I’ve picked from before time will receive life, that he may believe”.
Apparently the Arminian Bible leaves out the following verse...
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." -- John 10:26
This is not open to debate. Scripture is excruciatingly clear
It's certainly clear. Not sure I'd call it "excruciating."
"Clear" suffices...
"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4
The problem for God's "clear" Scripture is that men prefer the darkness and self-love is the rousing anthem of our fallen human nature.
All the "if/then" verses you cite are correct. But the only people who will be able to accomplish the "if" to get to the "then" are those who have been born again by the Holy Spirit.
And that rebirth is the free gift of God to whom He will.
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