Posted on 02/27/2011 8:08:19 PM PST by Natural Law
Faith Without Works? Do Calvinists Actually Read the Christian Bible? Is anyone as mystified as I am at this contradictory and unbiblical Calvinist “Sola Fide” idea that faith without works is sufficient for salvation? How can Calvinists reject James Chapter 2 which states that; “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14) and "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). To do so is antithetical to Scripture.
The Calvinist rejection of James is at best substitutional, permitting Calvinists to conclude that works naturally follow from and are only a result of true faith thus requiring no conscious commitment or consideration. The result is a negation of the call to Beatitude and a rejection of the obligations of the Second Greatest Commandment issued by Jesus Himself.
Borrowing from Hinduism many fringe Calvinists actually practice a form of the Brahiminst caste system in which they profess that their own Salvation was secure from the beginning of time and no obligation exists toward the less fortunate and needy because God rejected their election from the beginning of time.
The substitution of actual, contextual Scripture for the more flattering personal interpretations is a return to the Gnostic heresies that the Church successfully rejected more than a thousand years earlier. They attempt to seek truth through Scripture on their own despite the admonition of Peter who stated; “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20).
Faith alone is insufficient. Adam and Eve had faith yet fell. They spoke directly with God yet succumbed to sin. What about Paul, whom many Calvinists give greater credence than Jesus, when he says; "And if I should have prophesy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could move mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13: 2).
Perhaps the citations some will more closely identify with; the demons whom Jesus expelled.
"And behold they [the demons] cried out saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matt 8: 29).
The demons had faith certainly equal to that of the Calvinists. Not only do they profess that Jesus is the Son of God, but they also have a profound knowledge of Scripture and profess belief in the final judgment. Peter didn’t profess that Christ is the Son of God in Matthew 16:16-- eight chapters later. Why didn’t Jesus didn't make the demons the rock on which He built His Church? He required Works to build His Church.
Oh, Yes, they were all literal 24 hr days. That, however, does not mean that everything in verse one was included in the first 24 hr day.
hmmm... ok -- what do you mean by not everything was included in the first 24 hour day? When did it occur then?
You are correct, according to all theories actually including Calvin’s, the people who confess but are not admitted to the kingdom are not elect.
My point for your consideration — back to our original conversation! — Is that I do not believe under Calvinism works can be said to prove faith. Which is what I thought you originally proposed.
Rather it is the presence of true faith that proves a work per Cronos et al.
When they do this to impute the martyrdom of their theological or genetic ancestors to themselves, or blood lust to their correspondents, they are "waving a bloody shirt."
The "waving a bloody shirt" debate trick is particularly ironic on the Religion Forum where many posters are unwilling to get their feelings hurt much less be martyrs for their faith.
The moderators know the difference between that debate trick and actual hate mongering, e.g. the Palestinian's cartoon of Jewish men with fangs dripping blood, carrying the lifeless bodies of their children, the false Jesuit Oath.
So when a poster waves a bloody shirt at you on an "open" RF thread, ignore him.
1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Good, then you would be Catholic
Do you mean to say that you just picked up a Bible and came to the conclusions about the Trinity, Jesus Christ in the Godhead, etc? Or did you have some help? Did you gain from the teachings of others? Whether by word, by books etc.
ah, ok, that makes sense. Thank you.
Good point and one of the proofs that Baptism is necessary in the remission of sins that are washed by the blood of Jesus Christ
Maybe this will clear up what I mean. Those who are not saved can do good deeds, those who are truly saved WILL do good “works”. So, are good deeds a sign that one is saved? NO. Will a person who is saved do good deeds? YES.
Am I saying that good deeds prove faith? YES. Am I saying that good deeds indicate faith? NO.
Good, you believe the same as the Catholic faith.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
>>Did you gain from the teachings of others? Whether by word, by books etc.<<
One can look at the ideas of most anyone, then study to find if some, most, or all of what they teach is truth. Surely your following the Pope wouldn’t cause you to kiss the Koran and claim you all serve the same God.
Sounds, and " is " or " has " are 2 different things. Yes, it may sound to you works based Salvationers, but the bible is very very clear that GOD is not the one who temps a man.
An unfortunate choice of words. I should have said that Calvin claimed that God created evil and directs it. And then denies it. And then claims it. And then denies it...
I am not a works based Salvationer. I do however pay attention to the NT - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter and James which all tell us that we can lose the salvation that Jesus brings to us.
Except that by “Catholic” you mean those who only claim Jesus is the only way to the Father but then pray to Mary. Those who claim that Mary was sinless, and that Peter was the Rock instead of God.
Sorry Cronos, you can stroke and soothe your insecurities if you want but I call the RCC heretical.
You mean like the thief on the cross?
O.K. deeds prove but dont’indicate’ good works. that’s what you said. Now I see what you meant. Just one parting thought for you. This type of parsing will never ring true to a lot of people. Calvinism ultimately failed to win hearts (went from 95% of protestant world to 5% of protestant world in 400 years-just guessing at the numbers but you get the point-look at Holland, look at the bible belt) and I suspect it has something to do with all of this verbal sleight of hand that is necessary to keep the system pure.
God bless.
Whoa!! Let’s get one thing straight. I am NOT, I repeat NOT, a proponent of Calvin nor would I in any way want to be described as a “Calvinist”. If I reference Calvin it is only to point to his views, not mine necessarily. I haven't studied Calvin nor do I intend to. From what I know of him I disagree with much of what he put out there.
O.K., well I misunderstood. I would not have wasted my time! Ha ha.
Why would I care what Luther said when I have the Gospels which all substantiate and reinforce James and refute Luther, Calvin and the other heresies of the Reformation. Works are necessary......better look busy:
Matt 5:16 - Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.
Matt 16:27 - For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
Matt 25:34-36 - Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
Matt. 7:1 - Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matt. 10:22 - You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved
Matt 24:13 - but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matt 25:40-45 - 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Mark 13:13 - You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Mark 10:21 - Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Luke 12:43-48 - It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Luke 14:14 – 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Luke 23:41 - 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
John 3:19-21 - 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
James 2:24 - You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
James 2:26- As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
1 Peter 1:17 - Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear
1 Pet 2:12 - Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that if they speak of you as evildoers, they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation.
Rom. 8:13 - For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
2 Tim 4:14 - Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done.
Titus 3:8 - This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
Titus 3:14 - Our people must learn to devote themselves to doing what is good, in order to provide for urgent needs and not live unproductive lives.
1 Cor. 3:15 - If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Rom. 2:6-10, God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
Rom. 2:13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
2 Cor. 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
2 Cor. 9:6 – Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.
2 Cor. 11:15 - It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Gal. 6:7-9 – Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Eph. 6:8 – because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
Col. 3:24-25 - since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.
1 Tim. 6:18-19 – Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.
Heb. 12:14 – Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Rev. 2:5 - Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Rev. 2:10 – Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.
Rev. 2:19 - I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.
Rev. 2:23 - I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Rev. 3:15 – J “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.”
Rev. 14:13 - “for their deeds follow them!”
Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”
Rev. 22:12 – “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”
Since you trust in your works, merits more than the blood and Grace of Jesus Christ, you have become part of the Great Apostasy, you are a Apostate.
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