Posted on 02/21/2011 2:03:37 PM PST by Pyro7480
(The following is excerpted from "A Bishop, A Saint: The Life of Saint John Neumann," by Father James J. Galvin, C.SS.R, published by The Neumann Press. 5 January is the feast day of St. John Neumann.)
"[St. John] Neumann [then a priest in upstate New York] had actually gone to the [Protestant] meeting houses with Deacon John Reist....Once inside, the zealous Mennonite brethren had done their best to convince the 'little priest' of the folly of his Catholic way. He had politely listened. They quoted the Scriptures at some length; Neumann heard them out. Finally, Father Neumann began asking seemingly innocent questions, probing under the roots of their belief. Suddenly the whole meeting was in uproar. The 'little priest' was more canny than he seemed. How should they know that this Romish priest had the Bible so well, whole chapters of the book by heart?...Would the 'little priest' be willing, they wheedled, to meet some of their elders in public debate? Neumann had accepted...."
"News of the debate spread fast....More than the expected handful of Mennonites came...that Thursday afternoon. The back room hummed impatience, awaiting the arrival of the 'little priest' But at the moment, Father Neumann was a half hour away -- kneeling in Martin Demmer's farm kitchen with a group of neighbors, reciting the rosary for the usual intention: 'the preservation of the Faith in his parish.'"
"...All told, there were some forty people in the crowded room and as many more in the yard outside when Father Neumann, with an escort of four parishoners, ambled through the picket gate....The four might not have the book learning to argue the fine points of doctrine; but each of them could fell a tree and, if needs be, a man."
"...One of the Mennonite elders took the floor, launching into a sharp attack on the Romish Church: its superstitions, its idolatries, its despotic hold on free men in a free country. The crowd buzzed approval....Now the 'little priest' rose to his feet... [and] smiled at the gathering. Rapidly, he gave a brief account of his visit to the Mennonite meeting house."
"'Gentlemen, I said it last Sunday and I repeat it now. I am open to honest conviction. I will join your church -- if you can prove...here that your creed is worthy of belief.'"
"Phil Hoffmann's [one of the Catholic parishoners] eyes fairly popped from their sockets. But the priest knew what he was about. He had so set the stage that the burden of proof now rested squarely on the Mennonite divines. It would be up to them to adduce convincing evidence of what they believed and taught."
"When they had finished, Neumann stood up again and began to cross-examine. 'May I invite you to tell on what authority you believe what you hold to be true?'"
"'On the authority of the Word of God.' Mr. Enoch Long held up his dog-eared bible."
"'You believe, then that God is author of the Bible?'"
"'Yes: God the Holy Spirit.'"
"'Did God write the Bible in English as well as German?'"
"'Of course. He is its Author in every language and edition.'"
"'Very well.'" Neumann's voice rang clear and confident through the stuffy back room. 'Since the Bible has God, the Holy Spirit, for Author, what he says in your bible, he must likewise say in each and every bible in this room. God cannot contradict himself.'"
"Neumann invited the gathering to open their books to a certain chapter, a certain verse. He invited Mr. Enoch Long to read the passage aloud. He had the Baptist exhorter read the same verses from his own bible. Then, the circuit reader."
"Old Jonathan Eggert [a Protestant], cupping palm to ear, leaned forward. He put on his spectacles, asked for the three books. One by one, he read the chapter and verse; read them again. He shook his head. One version plainly contradicted the other."
"'If your neighbor's version does not agree with your own,' asked Father Neumann, 'how can you be so certain that God is the author? How can you know that your bible is right?' Quietly, the priest sat down."
"In the rear of the room, Mike Deasey [another Catholic parishoner] proudly folded two massive arms on his bottle-green shirt, grinning from ear to ear. But elder Enoch Long had an answer."
"'The mere printed word is not so important. What matters is that one have the Holy Spirit to guide his eye as he reads, to point out the true meaning of Scripture, and show what one must believe.'"
"Father Neumann again stood up. 'You are personally guided by the Holy Spirit?'"
"'His light and his truth are ever within us.'"
"...Is there some way you can prove that for me: that you have the Holy Spirit as your personal guide?' asked Neumann. 'After all, I am open to conviction; but you must furnish proof.'"
"'Why, sir, my whole life is proof!' The elder drew himself up tall, looked round the gathering for approval. 'There was a time, some fifteen years ago, when I was a sinner. I stole my neighbor's cattle....I cheated in many ways. But down at Bavaria, one summer's night, I attended a revival and was converted....I've been a changed man ever since.'"
"Mischief twinkled in Neumann's eye. 'You have just heard your elder admit to several transgressions. Openly he admits to cheating and theft. I wonder did he give back what he robbed, or its value, to the rightful owners.'"
"'No,' came a chorus of voices. 'He never did.'"
"'So you could hardly call his conversion genuine?'"
"'No,' roared a voice from the yard, a vaguely familiar voice. 'He's the same two-faced rogue he ever was.' Filling the open window, there stood Hans Fleischer, the cattle drover."
"Elder Long glared at the window. Mike Deasey slapped his neighbor's shoulder, rocking the room with an impolite guffaw. Abruptly, the debate was over. If the gathering had brought no wholesale conversions to the Catholic Church, it at least put a stop to Catholic leakage in Father Neumann's parish. Catholic farmers were no longer nagged by zealots peddling unwanted tracts and free bibles at the cabin doors."
You wrote:
“I don’t expect unity. There will not be unity.”
Not with that attitude there won’t.
” But there can be Christian behavior, and not preaching Christ out of envy and strife.”
What envy? What strife? Perhaps you’re projecting.
“I don’t expect unity. There will not be unity.”
How many different Churches did Christ give mankind?
What Protestant hit pieces?
The usual form is a Catholic posts something about the church’s faith or practice and if it is not a caucus thread, it immediately gets attacked by the ravenous horde here who hate all that she is and those who are believers.
Or, a Protestant posts something that is misleading and a Catholic corrects them and again, the horde descends.
I have been posting here several years and the attacks are most assuredly more towards Catholicism and her adherents.
If I am wrong, I will readily admit and apologize, but like the Mennonites, you will have to prove it.
I suspect this account is fiction.
That’s why nobody is able to answer my question.
Shame, Papists fibbing to support their denomination.
One, and it consists of all those whom the Lord has saved and adopted into His family, regardless whether they are members of the Roman Catholic Church.
What is Christ’s Church? Not the bureaucracy based out of Rome, but the more expansive household of God. Consider 1 Timothy 3:15, where Paul speaks of “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.”
Note that the “church of the living God” is in no way associated with Rome, but instead is simply identified as “the household of God.” Those who say that the Roman Church is the only legitimate expression of God’s Church deny the clear teaching of Scripture that His Church includes all those “in the household of God.”
“Tell me how you know the Book of Judith is NOT inspired?”
And how you know the Catholic Church is authoritative?
On what does the Catholic Church base it claim to authority?
“Ad hominem branding of a questioner as an agent of the devil does not answer their question, either.”
No, but it does serve to elucidate the nature of the questioner.
Attacks on the veracity of the Scripture arise from one place.
You wrote:
“And how you know the Catholic Church is authoritative?”
As expected, you, being a Protestant, are unable to answer my simple question. I can easily answer yours: Christ gave authority to the Church (see John 20:19-23 for instance). Only one Church can make a valid claim to being that Church and that one Church cannot be Protestant since NONE of the Protestant sects existed before October 31, 1517. By process of elimination we come to essentially two bodies: the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox churches. Further investigation would reveal to any honest inquirer that the Catholic Church is the only one that qualifies.
“On what does the Catholic Church base it claim to authority?”
Christ Himself.
Now, do you think you can even make a good faith effort at answering my question? So far it seems like you can’t answer it. Is that the case?
Omg. Was my mind ever such a thimble? Alas, it was. Thanks be to God, however...
“As expected, you, being a Protestant, are unable to answer my simple question. I can easily answer yours: Christ gave authority to the Church”
Please, bear with me a bit on this.
How do you know, authoritatively, that Christ gave this to the Church?
“Omg. Was my mind ever such a thimble? Alas, it was. Thanks be to God, however...”
I’ve always admired the “I’ll insult and belittle you into the Church” method of Catholic evangelism.
Do you find it works well for you?
You wrote:
“Please, bear with me a bit on this.”
No.
“How do you know, authoritatively, that Christ gave this to the Church?”
I already answered your question. Now please answer mine. If you are incapable of answering it, please simply say so. You asked. I answered. Now it’s your turn to provide an answer to my question.
“I already answered your question. Now please answer mine. “
I beg to differ.
Where is your proof that Jesus gave such authority to the Church?
You must admit, it’s rather a lot of authority to claim. Therefore there must be a solid basis for that claim.
(And I am, if fact, in the process of answering your question.)
You wrote:
“I beg to differ.”
It doesn’t matter. I answered your question. You have not answered mine.
“Where is your proof that Jesus gave such authority to the Church?”
I posted such.
“You must admit, it’s rather a lot of authority to claim.”
No, not really.
“Therefore there must be a solid basis for that claim.”
There is. I posted such.
“(And I am, if fact, in the process of answering your question.)”
Sure.
Oh? Using your understanding of the core mission of FR, how is this thread not in conformity with it>
The burden of proof is on the accuser to prove that this account is fiction. Otherwise, the accusation that “Papists are fibbing” is bearing false witness.
Me: “Where is your proof that Jesus gave such authority to the Church?”
You: “I posted such.”
I must have missed it, Where did you post it?
Yeah, when one conveniently brushes aside the first part of the question and the lead-up to it, that conclusion could be reached.
“Yeah, when one conveniently brushes aside the first part of the question and the lead-up to it, that conclusion could be reached.”
The rest is easily brushed aside. It’s one of the poorest excuses for an apologetic I’ve seen.
Let me summarize: “The Bible can’t be trusted because there are different versions and no one can be trusted to interpret it because we’re basically all cattle thieves.”
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