Posted on 02/08/2011 7:00:11 AM PST by topcat54
E. Earle Ellis writes that “the present existence of the Jerusalem temple (11:1) and its future desolation (11:2) are fairly strong indicators of a pre-AD 70 date for Revelation.”[8] In order for a post-A.D. 70 composition and futurist interpretation of Revelation to work, a rebuilt temple must be assumed, but it cannot be proved by anyone who claims to interpret the Bible in a literal fashion. There is not a single verse in the New Testament that says anything about a rebuilt temple, something that even dispensationalists acknowledge. Here’s what temple rebuilding advocates Tommy Ice and Randall Price admit: “There are no Bible verses that say, ‘There is going to be a third temple.’”[9]
(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...
Ah, that’s the problem. There is no “future temple” in the rest of Matthew 24. It’s a figment of your prophecy guru’s imagination. He invented it in order to try and make his flakey theology fit together in the face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. Your BFF is a hermeneutical fraud.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Yes, the end of what? Oh, wait, that’s what we were told at the beginning of the passage. Recall, you were relying on a faulty translation and thought it said “end of the world.” It is the “end of the age (aeon).” The old covenant age. It is the end of the age when Jesus appeared to put away sin. See Heb. 9:26. “This generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.”
Then in verse 15 He begins to talk about what will lead up to the time that the end shall come.
Yep. End of the age. Just compare it with Luke 21:
15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),Same event. AD70. Plain as the nose on your face.
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.
32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.
And what makes you think that is proof of two different “chosen people?”
R J Rushdoony demonstrated how these commands were relevant for 20th century refugees. When the Nazis or Commies took over a city, they stationed agents at train and bus stations, looking for people with heavy suitcases. The survivors casually walked out of their homes empty-handed, as though taking a brief family stroll, leaving the door unlocked. Then purchased a series of SHORT RUN bus or train tickets, keeping a low profile, staying "under the radar."
I seriously doubt that many who still stubbornly and foolishly claim to believe in the immanent parousia have the integrity to do as I did. Or, if they do, the shabby ugliness of their lives continues to repel people from the Gospel: "If that's a Christian, I hope I never become one!"
When God kindly opened my eyes to a more comprehensive view of His eternal purposes, my family life, marriage, and vocation got a quantum leap boost.
Today? Well -- my eschatology holds that Jesus will demolish every proud construct reared up against His glory. Acting on that conviction has led me to do the following:
>>I lived whole-heartedly in terms of that paradigm — eschewed further education, long-term relationships, and real-world career development.<<
It would seem that you are the type that tends to extremes on both ends of the spectrum. I would tend to discount the teachings of someone who does that.
AMEN!
Hath not my hand made all these things?" -- Acts 7:49-50 "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
God’s Chosen people are not “chosen” as in 5 point Calvinist Predestination.
God is not willing that anyone should perish - he will is that everyone to be saved.
However, God allows mankind freedom. He foreknows because he is above time. He exists forever, there was no time before God, not time after God. He stands above the universe he created, and as such, is not limited to our simple concept of cause and effect and the order of time.
Even the “law” of cause, effect, and the order of time has been shown to have limits. For example, Quantum Theory is proof (which has been verified many times in the lab) that simply OBSERVING an event can change the event. There is NO Clockwork universe (newtonian). (read on the double slit experiment)
The ONLY reason that 5 Point Calvinism is constructed (yes, the systematic theory) is because of the improper assumptions that God must conform to OUR concept of space/time/causality.
I find it interesting that the simple believe in strong (5 point) hyper Calvinism leads to “replacement theology” and the siding with “Palestinians” that believe in targeting innocents to get their way. Innocent slaughter is not the side I am on.
Yes, God CHOSE Israel. Yes the are a stiff-necked people. This may be why God chose them to bring the light into the world - because at least they would NOT change one jot or tittle in the scriptures - even if they ignore some fulfillments.
God loves us despite who we are, where we are. He loved us while we were yet sinners. We WILL NOT be perfect, as Jesus was, in this life.
Glory to the God of Second, and Third Chances for Sinners! The ONLY reason one will not be in paradise is to reject (grieve) the Holy Spirit. The Spirit says “Come”. God is not willing that any should perish, but all come to the knowledge of salvation, which is though our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Am I saying anything about a person’s destiny? No, because it’s is ONLY Jesus who saves, and knows those that are his, be they gentile, Jew,or greek.
The law did not save, it kills. Everyone (OT or NT) must plead on our Redeemer to be saved. God will reveal himself to any that seek (Rom 1), but the problem is not that God’s truth is hidden, it’s that man rejects the light.
There, I have said enough for you to hang me. We must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling — To me, God is a Big God. I don’t have it figured out, but I don’t have to make myself “feel” better by thinking God somehow values me over any other sinner.
I appreciate your explanation. I didn't say there are. I was not using the word “chosen” in the sense it is used in Calvinistic circles to refer to being chosen to eternal life. Rather, I was using it in the sense of 1 Peter 2:9.
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
In what sense did God choose Israel? What Bible passages form your opinion in this matter?
In what sense did God Choose Israel?
The following is wordy, but I don’t want to be accused of taking scripture out of context.
Enjoy!
The Call of Abram
1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”[b]
Genesis 17
The Covenant of Circumcision
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty[a]; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram[b]; your name will be Abraham,[c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
Galatians 3
Faith or Works of the Law
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]
9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]
Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
You provided many passages, and I appreciate that, but you didn't directly answer my question. In what sense did God choose Israel?
I don’t mince words. The scripture is VERY clear in many places he CHOSE Abraham (not the reverse), and chose Israel (not the reverse).
He chose them to be the medium, if you will, for the message.
Charismatics like to think they are special because only they “speak in tongues”. Reformers, because “we are the chosen”, The rest, probably due to good works. Everybody likes to think we are special. We are not. For we have ALL fallen and come short of the Glory of God.
Reminds me of the eastern religion believer (I don’t recall the brand), wherein their belief is the world rides on the back of a large turtle. When questioned, what was below the turtle, he replied, “It’s turtles - all the way down!”.
So God chose the Jews to be the medium for his message - literally. Jesus was born a Jew. The scriptures recorded by Jews, and most NT authors were from Jewish households. I guess all this is coincidence, and God really didn’t intend for salvation to be of the Jews? Read the scriptures, they will dissuade anyone who just reads them of that notion.
Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. (Rom. 3:2)It was through the Jewish nation that God's Messiah, the very Word of God, came to bring salvation to all nations, including Israel. So what is the message today, and who would you say is tasked with bringing the good news of Messiah in these days?
“The preterists would have you believe that the gospel had already been preached to all the world by 70AD.”
Paul makes it very clear that it was preached to all the world before his death, which was before 70 AD.
“Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; “
We (the church), have NOT replaced Israel, if that’s what you are fishing for.
God knew what Israel would do, how they would respond. He’s not sitting around surprised at any turn of events. The day will come when Israel will mourn for the Messiah that was pierced. If you read the passage, there is no way this has prophecy has been fulfilled, yet.
Zechariah 12
Jerusalem’s Enemies to Be Destroyed
1 A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel.
The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the LORD. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.’
6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 “The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
The word used in Colossians 1:23 is “synecdoche” which is a figure of speech. A whole is put for a part. It’s the same word used in Luke 2:1
1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
In the above case it’s obvious that Caesar Augustus was not in control of the “whole world” but only a part of it.
It’s also used in Gen 6:17; 2 Sam 6:5, 15; Dan 2:37-38 and many other places. It does not mean the entire world.
That’s quite a collection of con men.
I find it interesting that the Dispensationalists just can’t help substituting words when the original harms their narrative.
“Destroy” = “Desecrates”
“End of the Age” = “End of the World”
“Mourn” = “Repent”
“This generation” = “This race/ethnicity of people”
“at hand/very soon” = “thousands of years from now”
“flee to hills of Judea” = “rapture into heaven”
and on, and on, and on....
So how did the people in North America in 70 AD hear the gospel?
If you are going to apply a hyper-literal hermeneutic, do you also claim that squirrels and lions heard the gospel ... since they are 'creatures?'
“Ezekiel saw a visionary temple, one that did not exist. John saw the actual temple in a vision and was told to measure it.
See the difference?”
No, where in the text does it say that John’s temple is the actual temple that was existing at that time? Just saying that there are people milling about in the temple in the vision doesn’t establish any such thing.
Ezekiel’s temple was constructed as part of the vision. John’s temple is standing. No introduction necessary. Like the rest of the NT, there is no hint of any post-AD70 temple building program in Revelation.
The text uses the definite article, ton naon tou theo. When John received the vision there was only one temple of God. It was “THE” Temple of God. In particular, in is the inner court of the temple accessible only by the Jews. It was the only thing that could be measured.
It’s unnecessary, therefore, to have to construct an entirely new temple in the future. The vision has been fulfiiled.
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