Biblically Optimistic and Gospel-Based
"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)
Posted on 02/08/2011 7:00:11 AM PST by topcat54
E. Earle Ellis writes that “the present existence of the Jerusalem temple (11:1) and its future desolation (11:2) are fairly strong indicators of a pre-AD 70 date for Revelation.”[8] In order for a post-A.D. 70 composition and futurist interpretation of Revelation to work, a rebuilt temple must be assumed, but it cannot be proved by anyone who claims to interpret the Bible in a literal fashion. There is not a single verse in the New Testament that says anything about a rebuilt temple, something that even dispensationalists acknowledge. Here’s what temple rebuilding advocates Tommy Ice and Randall Price admit: “There are no Bible verses that say, ‘There is going to be a third temple.’”[9]
(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...
”[I]t must be remembered that in the Book of Revelation John is receiving a vision about future things. He is transported in some way to that future time in order to view events as they will unfold. The word “saw” is used 49 times in 46 verses in Revelation because John is witnessing future events through a vision. It does not matter at all whether the Temple is thought to be standing in Jerusalem at the time that John sees the vision since that would not have any bearing upon a vision. John is told by an angel to “measure the temple” (Rev. 11:1). Measure what Temple? He is to measure the Temple in the vision. Even if there were a temple still standing in Jerusalem, John was on the Island of Patmos and would not have been allowed to go and measure that Temple. Ezekiel, during a similar vision of a Temple (Ezek. 40–43) was told to measure that Temple. When Ezekiel saw and was told to measure a Temple there was not one standing in Jerusalem (Preterists agree). Thus, there is no compulsion whatsoever to conclude that just because a temple is referenced in Revelation 11 that it implies that there had to be a physical Temple standing in Jerusalem at the same time.“Let’s deal with the obvious mistake in Ice’s analysis. Ezekiel was not told to measure the temple. Ezekiel saw “a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze . . . who measured the thickness of the wall” (Ezek. 40:3, 5). Ezekiel sees this man doing the measuring. Ezekiel is a bystander. Being a visionary temple, Ezekiel did not have access to it because it existed only in a vision, and there is no indication that it was ever designed to be built.”
"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)
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I don’t claim to understand most of it. I just pray He’ll come back and get me real soon.
For anyone interested, a helpful study of the Ezekiel Temple prophecies:
Ezekiel’s Prophecy of the Temple
By Dr. Randall Price
http://www.worldofthebible.com/Bible%20Studies/Ezekiel’s%20Prophecy%20of%20the%20Temple.pdf
Helpful resources sorting out other misunderstandings involving Preterism and partial Preterism:
Not long ago at the Pre-Trib Study Group conference in Dallas, TX, futurist Dr. Mark Hitchcock clearly and decisively won the debate against partial Preterist (though he refuses to call himself that) Hank Hanegraaff.
Soon after, Dr. Hitchcock spoke at another conference, discussing material presented at the debate.
An mp3 audio of that presentation is available free online, as is a video version. At the following link, scroll down the page to:
Dr. Mark Hitchcock - A.D. 95 - Defending the Traditional Date of Revelation
In addition, some helpful articles:
A Case for the Futurist Interpretation of the Book of Revelation
by Dr. Andy Woods
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Woods-ACasefortheFuturistI.pdf
A Futurist Response to the Preterist Interpretation of Babylon in Revelation 17-18
by Dr. Andy Woods
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Woods-AFuturistResponsetot.pdf
Preterism
by Dr. Randall Price
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/price/15rp.pdf
Has Bible Prophecy Already Been Fulfilled?
by Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-HasBibleProphecyAlrea.pdf
Gary Demar’s End Times Fiction
by Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-GaryDemarsEndTimesFic.pdf
A Review of Hank Hanegraaff’s The Apocalypse Code
by Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-AReviewofHankHanegra.pdf
An Assessment of Kenneth L. Gentry’s Internal Evidence for Dating Revelation
by Dr. Robert Thomas
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Thomas-AnAssessmentofKennet.pdf
Preterism and Zechariah 12-14
by Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-PreterismandZechariah.pdf
Josephus and the Fall of Jerusalem: An Evaluation of the Preterist View on Jerusalem in Prophecy
by Dr. Wayne House
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/House-JosephusandtheFallof.pdf
Exactly.
Lev 26 said that if Israel kept the Lord's commandments they would live in the land securely. And if they didn't they'd be exiled. And if they repented, He'd bring them back. And if they didn't repent, He'd bring them back anyway.
Zech 10, written after Israel was brought back from the Babylonian exile, speaks of a future exile and future restored Israel.
Zec 10:8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. Zec 10:9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. Zec 10:10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and [place] shall not be found for them. Zec 10:11 And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall smite the waves in the sea, and all the deeps of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the sceptre of Egypt shall depart away.
After nearly 2000 years of exile, the Lord has brought an unrepentant Israel back to live in the land.
And Chapter 12 issues a stark warning for those who oppose Israel that I hope our country never forgets.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. ...
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
“Here’s what temple rebuilding advocates Tommy Ice and Randall Price admit: “There are no Bible verses that say, ‘There is going to be a third temple.’”[9]”
To seek to rebuild the temple calls into question the sufficiency of Christ’s death for sinners; as Paul says in Galatians to consider such nonsense is a return to bondage.
God has ha tendency to foreshadow prophetic events and to fulfill things MANY times, like a parent repeating himself to a child.
To that end, remember Jesus’ saying, “Destroy this temple, and I will build it up again in three days”.?
Could the temple have literally been destroyed (70AD) and it be God’s plan to restore it also? Will be a LONG TIME (maybe 2 - 3000 years) before it is built back up?
Question: It was 3 days, but how many hours (approximately) from Jesus’ death to the morning of the resurrection? I think (just a guess) around 34 -40 hours??? Note that there are 72 hours in a full 3 days. The Jews reckoned time Sundown to Sundown. So for us, God’s three “days” could be 1600 to 2500 years or so AD, before the temple gets “rebuilt”.
If it’s just a debate about whether Revelation was written pre-70 or in 95, I don’t see the point. I read Revelation not as a future prophecy, but as what the stated purpose of the work is: “The revelation of Jesus Christ”.
As far as temples go, Revelation 21 says that when New Jerusalem came down, no temple could be found in it because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Go back to Galatians 4 and see how Paul contrasts the “present Jerusalem” with the “Jerusalem that is above”. Doesn’t the Jerusalem-that-is-above correspond to Christ, the Israel of God and His Body, the Church?
In Colossians 3, doesn’t Paul tell us that we are dead and that our lives are — present tense, right now — hid with Christ in God?
Wouldn’t the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven correspond to Christ coming with and to His people? That is, to an unveiling or apocalypse of Christ with all of us in Him?
I am quite familiar with the Bible. I am considerably less familiar with Scofield’s notes and Finis Dake’s notes and the various sensationalist dispensationalist claims which would seem to have very little to do with fulfilling the Great Commission or living lives of holiness and righteousness individually.
“By their fruits shall ye know them”
All the “fruit” that comes from the dispensational pre-trib rapture tree are books and seminars about the latest signs. People get hyped up and “live holy” for a week or two — holy in negative sense of: “we don’t smoke and we don’t chew”. No one is transformed by this or any other eschatological view. Maybe I’m cynical, but that’s the way it looks to me. Perhaps we would be wise to be more concerned with teleology and less hung up on eschatology.
Are you being serious?
“Being a visionary temple, Ezekiel did not have access to it because it existed only in a vision, and there is no indication that it was ever designed to be built.”
Let me get this straight... both John and Ezekiel saw a temple in a vision from God, but John’s temple must be the real, currently existing temple, while Ezekiel’s is assumed to only exist in a vision? I’m not following the logic there...
You would think that people who claim to read and interpret the Bible “literally” would understand that. But no, the theories run wild. Ignore the NT and play up the OT. A poorly interpreted OT.
Ezekiel saw a visionary temple, one that did not exist. John saw the actual temple in a vision and was told to measure it.
See the difference? Futurists usually gloss over such details.
Since the time of Abraham, the father of many nations, there has been an Israel. You’re confusing the people of God with a dusty piece of land. It’s a common error these days.
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.One people Israel.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, (Eph. 2)
Do you really think you can “figure” out God’s timing?
Jesus’s disciples were clueless in the face of events and even with him telling them in plain language.
So this is SPECULATION! Which BTW, is exactly what it should be called when people make guesses about the proper interpretation of scripture for future events.
Do you really think you can “figure” out God’s timing?
Certainly not using that kind of “logic.” Were you being serious?
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