Posted on 02/07/2011 8:45:48 AM PST by verdugo
She prays for us.
Official Catholic teaching is that Catholics do indeed pray TO saints (for intercession, of course).
As a non-Catholic (former Catholic), I've defended Catholics on this point as to the reasonableness of the position. (I assume saints are indeed living and can hear us).
Where I differ with my Catholic friends is with respect to the efficacy of asking Mary or another saint multiple times to "pray for us." When I ask a friend to pray for me, he hears it the first time. I don't have to call him 100 times within the hour and keep asking him again. :-)
I realize your list is written in a sarcastic and/or humorous way, but here is a response nevertheless. Most of the laws you quote were civil laws expressly written for and observed by the children of Israel and worked well for maintaining civil order. Some of these laws concerning hygiene were amazing considering they knew nothing about germs at that time. Some sound strange to us because they are taken out of cultural context, such as “if a man sells his daughter as a slave...” Others of these are external forms of laws that were later “written on our hearts and minds” under the new covenant of Jesus Christ. Now our body is the temple and the sacrifice is complete in the cross.
Thankfully, there’s at least one person who disagrees:
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9
Doesn’t say a word about Catholicism, but rather about saving faith in Jesus Christ.
I’ve read the entire Bible.
It’s all about the HEART. It’s NOT about praying TO Mary or other dead sinners. What is in your heart comes out through your actions. Elevating Mary to the level of Christ is WRONG on so many levels. Traditions and rituals won’t get you there either. Saying 52,000 Hail Mary’s and 700 Out Fathers won’t matter either.
Try reading this passage and applying it:
Matt.6:7
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Vatican II is a punishment from God. It is a snare, a siren song to RUN AWAY FROM!
What you don’t understand is that the Jews in the OLD Testament were making Judiasm a LEGALISTIC ritual and the Priests were HYPOCRITES. Maybe that could help clear your head.
The problem is that you WANT to believe what you do. You do NOT want serious discussion. You simply want to mock Christians and Jews.
There is something else you should note. The Bible RECORDS what people did. It doesn’t necessarily CONDONE what people did. For example, no where does it work out well for men to have MUTLIPLE WIVES. Yet it happens all the time. The intermarrying for political reasons was routinely done and that didn’t work out well either. Why? Because from the beginning it was to be ONE man for ONE woman. Finally Christ calrified that as well as the deciples because the people were not being obedient and obeying the prophets.
I assume saints are indeed living and can hear us
I don’t believe that is a defensible assumption. I believe the dead leave this space time continuum.
Wow! As a Buddhist I must really be in deep do-do. Where do I sign up for this Catholic thingy?
And yet, it’s not as simple as I first thought: Moslems torture and kill me in this life if I don’t convert, and then Allah sends me to hell. Catholics at least won’t torture and kill me in this life (at this point in history, anyway . . . probably) - yet they still expect the Catholic God to send me to hell after I die - a kinder and gentler, more “charitable” posture, I suppose.
So, who has jurisdiction? Do I end up in the Moslem hell or the Catholic one? Or both? Do the eternal sentences run consecutively? Do I get any say in this, any appeal? And how does this fit in with the whole endowed by my Creator with certain inalienable rights thing? Inquiring Buddhists want to know.
My purpose is to save souls from damnation, nothing new for Catholics, the popes have been proclaiming it forever :
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: “Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra: “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which [b]no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”
Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”
Proclamations of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium
In addition to the ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter) proclamations of the popes, a Catholic must also believe what is taught by the Catholic Church as divinely revealed in her Ordinary and Universal Magisterium (Magisterium = the teaching authority of the Church): Pope Pius IX, Vatican I, Sess. III, Chap. 3, ex cathedra: “Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed.”
the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium does not actually have to be considered at all in regard to Outside the Church There is No Salvation, because this dogma has been defined from the Chair of Peter and nothing in the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium can possibly contradict the Chair of Peter. Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio, 590‐604: “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.” Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:
“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”
Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351: “In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”
Pope St. Pius V, Bull excommunicating the heretic Queen Elizabeth of England, Feb. 25, 1570: “The sovereign jurisdiction of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, has been given by Him [Jesus Christ], unto Whom all power in Heaven and on Earth is given, the King who reigns on high, but to one person on the face of the Earth, to Peter, prince of the Apostles... If any shall contravene this Our decree, we bind them with the same bond of anathema.”
Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824: “It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”
Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: “We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation. In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation.”
Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”
Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.” Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”
Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscum (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics).”
Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 ‐ Proposition 16: “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.” – Condemned
Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi futura prospicientibus (# 7), Nov. 1, 1900: “Christ is man’s ‘Way’; the Church also is his ‘Way’… Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain.”
Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904: “Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation…”
Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: “The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society. Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station ad office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation.”
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.”
Of course you have every right to proselytize, until the person tells you to stop. The catholic church has every right to teach that everyone outside the church has a soul that is in mortal danger. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson it neither breaks my bones or pricks my flesh.
Considering we have a constitution that allows us to violate 7 of the ten commandments I find it funny when people want them posted all over the place.
That would include Pope Bendict XVI.
No thanks,........"Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia"...... works just fine for me.
Disavow vatican II? Where does the pope stand on vatican II?
Vatican II was not a dogmatic council. It did not declare any new doctrines. If anyone sincerely reads any part of Vatican II that people use today to change Catholic dogma (an impossibility), you will find that it does not clearly state what they say.
One can ignore Vatican II altogether, since VatII does not contain any new dogmas, and all the defined dogmas are contained in councils and decrees prior to Vatican II.
Hey, its OK. We were taught the same thing about you.
Best belly laugh Ive had this week.
Who precisely is “we”?
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
Now I am a deist not a christian so I don't have a dog in this fight but it appears to me that the christian re-constructionist movement is more correct on this one.
Scripture is even more strict if you look at Moses in the desert for 40 years and all his purgings, and additionally:
15 He that striketh his father or mother, shall be put to death. 17 He that curseth his father, or mother, shall die the death. (Exodus 21)
18 If a man have a stubborn and unruly son, who will not hear the commandments of his father or mother, and being corrected, slighteth obedience: 19 They shall take him and bring him to the ancients of his city, and to the gate of judgment, 20 And shall say to them: This our son is rebellious and stubborn, he slighteth hearing our admonitions, he giveth himself to revelling, and to debauchery and banquetings: 21 The people of the city shall stone him: and he shall die, that you may take away the evil out of the midst of you, and all Israel hearing it may be afraid. (Deut 21)
No. Neither do all Catholics. In fact, most likely, most Catholics from today will not be saved.
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