The Fact is ... the Athenasian Creed was lauded by Christians from 13th to the 18th Century and was a major benchmark to their “Trinitarian Philosophy”. Then about the time of Joseph Smith, the Creed was found to be a complete FRAUD! Nevertheless .... while the vast majority of the Christian Churches acknowledged the Creed was a Fraud ... they doubled down on the doctrines it entrenced .... thus straying even further from the biblical standard.
It is no wonder that Christ himself called a new Prophet to dispel false doctrine that had become mainstream!
Christ himself uttered these words during the First Vision “... and all of thier Creeds are an abomination to me ....”
the Creeds
unscriptural ....
indefensible ....
an Abomination ....
Proof? Supporting documentation?
That's a lie! Prove me wrong from the Bible, not the fiction of Joseph Smith...you may consider this a dare.
JS wrote it ambiguously enough to permit others to come to that conclusion.
It's an assumption on the part of mormons to believe that. JS never recorded that he was speaking to God or that Jesus was speaking to him.
The use of the word "Personages" is in no way an adequate description of God and Jesus, I don't care how you try to spin that.
1 John:
4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
First off, the warning about testing the spirits and the fact that false prophets would be known by their worldliness. Well, JS was quite worldly. He was a lecher, a thief, a con-man, etc. Many of the things JS did while he was the "prophet" were the behaviors that are in direct contradiction of a Godly man. There were a lot of "convenient" "revelations" that "permitted" him a great deal of latitude.
Secondly, the "personages" description and the failure of the spirits to clearly identify and confess Jesus during the purported 1st vision.
The narrative (1st vision, [pick a version]) is ambiguous, it does not clearly state that God and Jesus, came down, nor does he claim to have heard the name of Jesus, just "this is my beloved son..." (That IS NOT "confessing" Jesus). It's implied through the use of descriptive language. But at no time does the personage(spirit) state absolutely that it was Jesus who was going to "speak" to JS.
Wishing something to be true doesn't make it true.
The mormons HAVE to believe JS was telling the truth or the whole, vile, scam comes crashing down around their heads. The Bible stands on it's own, the BoM not so. The D&C, no chance, a collection of heresies and blasphemies written by a lying, adultering, thieving person of absolutely no good character.
I say: [Citation needed]
The Athanasian Creed remains an accurate exposition on the Christian belief of the Trinity, one that developed organically from the earliest days of the Church. A study of the works of the Early Fathers tells the story of this development - of balancing the notions of Monotheism and also that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all Kyrios, a word that had been used in the Septuagint to mean the LORD God. Both of these notions were Scriptural, but working through what seemed to be a paradox took hundreds of years.
Christ himself uttered these words during the First Vision “... and all of thier Creeds are an abomination to me ....”
the Creeds unscriptural .... indefensible .... an Abomination ....
I will let the words of St. Paul speak to your claims that Trinitarian Christianity is somehow "unscriptural" while Mormonism is:
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal. 1:6-9)
What First Vision of Christ? The one in the Book of Mormon?
Sorry; but you are broadcasting information that is not TRUE.
'CHRIST' said nothing...
Read it for yourself:
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.
“Nevertheless .... while the vast majority of the Christian Churches acknowledged the Creed was a Fraud”
WOW! HUGE historical claim, yet with no historical citation that demonstrates it is a true claim.
I’ve never seen a historical reference that says a vast majority of Christian Churches acknowledged the Athenasian Creed was a fraud. Frankly, it sounds like a sweeping statement that lacks historicity.
Perhaps you can list some non-cultic historical citations that demonstrate what you claim is true. I would very much like to see them.
thank you in advance teppe,
ampu
teppe wrote:
Christ himself uttered these words during the First Vision “... and all of thier {SIC} Creeds are an abomination to me ....”
the Creeds
unscriptural ....
indefensible ....
an Abomination ...
1832
personage: Smith claimed the first vision only Jesus was there
Nov. 1835
personage: Smith claimed the first vision only an angel was there
1838
personages: Smith claimed the first vision both the Father AND the Son were there
The Athanasian Creed was mistakenly attributed to Saint Athanasius it is true, but, that is quite a different statement to saying the creed itself is a “fraud.” The book of Hebrews in the New Testament was mistakenly attributed to St. Paul (most scholars think); that doesn’t make its content a fraud.
Since you reject the orthodox Christian creeds, please tell us exactly what points say, in the simplest one, the Apostles Creed, you find so horrible:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen
You never replied to my post #26...