Did Martin Luther Act Infallibly in Defining What Books Belong in the Bible?

Self | January 2011 | Aquinasfan

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Did Martin Luther Act Infallibly in Defining What Books Belong in the Bible?

If Luther did not act infallibly:

- How can Protestants be certain that they have an infallible collection of Books in Holy Scripture?
- How can the Bible be the sole rule of faith, if no one knows with certainty which books belong in the Bible?

If Luther acted infallibly:

- How do you know?

[Free Vulcan]

You might want to re-read your church history, discussions of canon were already happening in the early church, back to Origen and Irenaeus. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, listed the same NT canon as we have today...in 367.

These were affirmed by the Synod of Hippo and the Council of Carthage under the authority of St. Augustine back around 400 AD. This was affirmed by Rome in the 4th century, and by the 5th the canon was considered pretty much settled.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

For if the Bible is not the infallible word of God, but a creation of man, who decides what is Gods word and what is mans word?

Protestants? Martin Luther? You're begging the question as to what constitutes Scripture, and who/what has the authority to determine it.

[Cronos]

oh, and I must point this out — anyone who believes in the tenets as outlined in the Nicene Creed, I welcome as a brother or sister in Christ. We may dispute as siblings over matters of doctrine, but we both know that Jesus Christ is our Lord, God and Savior, and He is God with the Father and Son, not 3 gods but ONE God.

[Salvation]

** How do you know?**

W know that Martin Luther could not act infallibly because he was not a Pope or a Magisterium or did not represent the Catholic Church in any way at all.

He was and is WRONG!

[HossB86]

“Do you think that Catholics don’t believe this?”

I don’t know about other Roman Catholics; you just wrote that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Bible, which as I noted by Scripture, is an outright falsehood.

So.. do YOU believe it? If so, why did you say that some man-made institution *wrote* the Bible? God breathed it out; not the Roman Catholic Church....

Which is it?

Hoss

[Salvation]

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther

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"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther

[RegulatorCountry]

I can certainly say Martin Luther was fallible, fallen and sinful just as we all are, including every Pope who ever lived and even Mary, indeed every single human being past, present and future on the face of this Earth save one, and that was Jesus Christ.

Martin Luther is not some stand-in for a pope, St_Thomas_Aquinas. That’s not the case even for Lutherans, let alone the rest of Christianity deemed “Protestant.”

You clearly did not read the links provided for you by Mr. Rogers regarding the ongoing controversy, right up to and beyond the Council Of Trent, regarding the canonicity of the Deuterocanonical books of the Bible. It was not merely a Protestant-Catholic issue, it was and actually is an internal matter within Catholicism.

Can you explain why you fail to grasp this?

[Salvation]

Authority.

The Keys of the Kingdom were given by Christ to whom?

There is the authority.

I’ll wait for your answer

[Jvette]

I have been back for ten years now. Peaceful, content and happy don’t do justice in describing me since that return, though they do come close:)

Thank you for the post, it is very well done.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

What did Jerome think of the Apocrypha?

Was he infallible? Was Luther?

Is the Apocrypha good for teaching doctrine?

Do you mean the deuterocanonical books of the Bible? Yes.

Let's look at the primary document, the actual text of the Council:

And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according [Page 19] to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.

The decree of the Council of Trent regarding the canon of Scripture is unambiguous.

The Catholic Canon of the Old Testament.

[Salvation]

Your home page says that you were a country chair for a GOP candidate, so I trust you can discern the truth.

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[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

You might want to re-read your church history, discussions of canon were already happening in the early church, back to Origen and Irenaeus. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, listed the same NT canon as we have today...in 367. These were affirmed by the Synod of Hippo and the Council of Carthage under the authority of St. Augustine back around 400 AD. This was affirmed by Rome in the 4th century, and by the 5th the canon was considered pretty much settled.

Did I say something to contradict this?

[CynicalBear]

>> The office of Pope was founded on the words of Christ: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [which means a rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" ( Matthew xvi, 18).<<

That Peter was designated by Jesus to be the leader of the church is utter rubbish. In fact, if there was a designated “pope” or leader, which there was NOT, it would have appeared to have been James.

When there arose a dispute the Apostles and elders assembled in Jerusalem. Acts 15 tells us about the meeting which was the first meeting of church leaders.

Verse 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

James actually was the evident authority in the first church council gathering in Jerusalem. Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

How could James have made the definitive statement “Wherefore my sentence is” if Peter, who was in attendance, had been the designated leader? There are many references in scripture that there was no designated leader of the one true church other then Jesus Himself.

[Salvation]

I guess you missed this:

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther

[bronx2]

Bring on the discussion but let us not omit the current atrocities perpetrated by protestants which of course does not receive the publicity said crimes so richly deserve since protestants are so fragmented and divided into over 30,000 different cults.

Would your lead off hitter be Vickey Jean Robinson followed by kathy Schori or Jimmy Swagart or Amy Semple McPherson the paragon of feminine virtue. In light of the many Anglican/Episcopalian clergy and laity currently converting to Catholicism it might be difficult to justify your position.

[RegulatorCountry]

Welcome home.

You forgot the ™

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

“Do you think that Catholics don’t believe this?”

I don’t know about other Roman Catholics; you just wrote that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Bible, which as I noted by Scripture, is an outright falsehood.

Well, the New Testament, anyway. The Christian writers were inspired by God, obviously. But the question at hand is, How do Christians know who was and wasn't inspired by God? As other Protestants here have noted, some NT books (like Revelation) were disputed for a considerable period of time.

So.. do YOU believe it? If so, why did you say that some man-made institution *wrote* the Bible? God breathed it out; not the Roman Catholic Church....

The Catholic Church determined which writings and letters were inspired by God. Eventually these writings were compiled by the Church into the NT.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther

Proud papist bump ;-)

[bronx2]

These intellectually challenged have no response to your inquiry so they reply with taunts which serve as their justification.

These ones are addicted to their sinful prideful lives of personal interpretation of scripture which justifies their evil activities. They know Catholicism gave them the bible but to admit this salient fact would be an admission against self interest so they reside in a would of fiction.

[HossB86]

“The Keys of the Kingdom were given by Christ to whom?”

To those who believe, as Peter confessed — the Holy catholic (note the little ‘c’ — NOT the Roman Catholic) church.

So... try again.

Hoss