Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...
Is that knowledge or belief that it applies to you?
If you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then you can resist; if you are not truly filled, then you can succumb.
A person who does not have the Spirit indwelling him is not a Christian:
Does that mean that you believe that the Spirit can only come upon an infant? Or are you going over to the Reformed hijacking theological thought?
The rest of your post is exalting the Catholic Church.
Exalting? I am trying to point out its responsibilities. And I have occasionally mentioned the predicted results of failure by individuals within the Church.
In fact the Presbyterians have demonstrated on this thread and others that they clearly do not consider you Pentecostals Christian as they hurl the same insults towards you, as they THEMSELVES say that they think “Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics”, they also say that Calvinism = Christianity and tie that in to their own website calling your preachers heretics and your beliefs damnable heresy, it is clear that they only tolerate you and other Pentecostals, Methodists,Lutherans,etc. as useful fodder, until they turn on you.
Romans 13: 1 1 1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. 2 Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, 4 for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. 6 This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due .
Paul was pretty clear.
| Gamecock: "This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics." |
As the mystical body of Christ is the only one that wholly consists of believers, that is the one true church, while competition remains for those who will claim to be the one true visible church.
Like faith without works, the universal church, into which a believer is added at the moment of conversion, (1Coir. 12:13) even if in the desert (Acts 8:36-38) or before baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) always has a visible expression. And it is the Biblical gospel of grace - which can result in immediate conversion by convicted sinners, destitute of moral fitness and damned due to the lack of it, placing faith in the mercy of the Biblical God in the Biblical Christ for salvation on His blood expense and righteousness - that is the core truth of the church. This does relate to more than just the facts of the the gospel, as conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment presumes at least light of conscience, and trusting Christ to save infers Deity, yet as the Bible shows, the truth that results in the body of Christ having its members can be apprehended by a prepared soul quite readily.
And as by faith in the gospel of basic truths is how the church gains its members, then it militates against one particular group claiming to be the only true visible church. It is those who distort that and require membership in their particular church for salvation, as they are exclusive possessors of salvific truth, and requiring implicit trust in men, who are marked as “cults.”
An Eastern Orthodox bishop has expressed this doctrine as follows:[2]
“Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church” (G. Florovsky, “Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church”, in The Church of God, p. 53).
Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved.
As Augustine wisely remarked: “How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!” (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a “visible” and an “invisible Church”, yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say. —Kallistos Ware
Protestants cannot say no one is saved in the RCC, nor can it claim it alone is the body of Christ, and it does nor, but the contention is when either is inferred, and which best represents the Bilical church, and upon what basis is that determined.
Well, since it comes from an expert...
1. Calvinism = Reformationa. R.C. Sproul, in his introduction to the New Geneva Study Bible that aggressively promotes Calvinism in the margin notes, refers to it as "Reformation truth."**John Calvin was a child when Luther wrote his 95 Theses. He was, with respect to the Reformation, a Johnny-come-lately with his own peculiar twist (albeit derived in part from Augustine) that became represented by TULIP.
b. "We therefore call upon evangelicals to affirm a vision for reformation which is in accordance with the witness of Scripture and in continuity with the history testimony of the church. Such a vision is of a church which is both Catholic and Reformed. By 'Catholic' we do not mean 'Roman Catholic.' By Reformed, we mean that we confess those doctrines about the authority of Scripture and salvation by grace alone which our Reformed forefathers reaffirmed at the time of the Reformation. (emphasis in the original) "The London Declaration 2000: Alliance of Reformation Christians-A vision for biblical unity in the modern church, "The Evangelican Problem""
c. "We likewise affirm that we are Augustinians in our doctrine of man and in our doctrine of salvation. This is because we believe that Augustine and his successors, including the Reformers, faithfully reflect the Bible's teaching..." [followed by a list of tulip points] The London Declaration (Now go back to b. and substitute "Calvinism" for "Reformation" and you'll see their objective)
d. "The great advantage of the Reformed Faith is that in the framework of the Five Points of Calvinism it sets forth clearly what the Bible teaches concerning the way of salvation." Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Faith, 1983.
2. Calvinism = Christianitya. "The doctrines of grace (Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the saints) are the warp and woof of the biblical gospel cherished by so many saints for centuries." John Piper, TULIP, The Pursuits of God's Glory in Salvation, 2000, back cover blurb.
b. "God's plan of salvation revealed the Scriptures consists of what is popularly known as the Five Points of Calvinism." and "Calvinism is pure biblical Christianity in its purest and clearest expression." Leonard J. Coppes, Are Five Points Enough? The Ten Points of Calvinism, 1980.
c. "If you do not know the Five Points of Calvinism, you do not know the gospel, but some perversion of it..." Fred Phelps, "The Five Points of Calvinism, The Berea Baptist Banner, Feb 5, 1990.
d. "I do not ask whether you believe Calvinism. It is possible you may not. But I believe you will before you enter heaven. I am persuaded that as God may have washed your hearts, He will wash your brains before you enter heaven." C.H. Spurgeon, Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, n.d., American Baptist Society.
e. "We believe with the great Baptist preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, that Calvinism is just another name for Christianity." John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism, 1991.
f. "We hold and assert again and again that the truth which Calvin preached was the very truth which the apostle Paul had long before written in his inspired epistles, and which is most clearly revealed in the discourses of our blessed Lord Himself." C.H. Spurgeon, Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon
g. "Calvinism is evangelicalism in its purest and only stable expression." B.B. Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, ed. Samuel G. Craig, 1956.
h. "Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the Gospel." Arthur C. Custance, The Sovereignty of Grace, 1979.
Good point. Do they say such are not saved, or that while they contend for doctrine, that they alone are the OTC visible church? I honestly do not know. See 2,826 but while Calvinistic leaders like RC Sproul warn against what Arminianism can do, i do not think they necessarily equate this with being lost, which i think is fringe view.
Yes, yes. And how are you going to indicate how representative of 1.2 billion plus people across the world a sample in some hollow of the United States would be. I would advise my Protestant friends to untuck their heads from their navels and consider that the world is not the county of the United States that they grew up in.
Daniel — the Catechism states of “separated Churches and Communities as such”, that they “have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”
Sure. We categorize heresy as a mortal sin. We use the Pauline model of expulsion for those we think are preaching heresy. But we have no way of telling who is actually condemned to hell. That is only up to God. Neither I nor any man, or angel has that power.
I never knew that Feingold, Specter, Schumer, Feinstein, Boxer, Wasserman-Shultz, Weiner, Kohl, Levin, Lowey, not to mention Clinton, Obama, Reid, and Carter were Catholics.
Not convenient. However since antiCatholics are so often wrong, it is just sad. We do not hate failed Catholics; we feel sorrow and we look to see how we have failed them.
I dot't know, you'll have to negotiate with Kolo on that one. :)
Well, Kolo?
You were wrong all this time. The best that could be said is that some of the verses agree with an already established Trinity.
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