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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: crusades; endtimes; eschatology; rapture
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To: daniel1212
But even this is a matter of interpretation, that of what infallible means. Your definition is different from saying that its substance is inerrant, and or that its truth is pure, and which is how Scripture is treated within Scripture, while your definition would disallow anything that can be abused from being infallible, which disallows any authority from being infallible. And yet it presumes that Rome's claim to infallibility cannot be a misuse of history, tradition and Scripture.

If Scripture says what it is meant to mean, it is inerrant. If it is interpreted correctly, the interpretation is infallible. What is correct? We believe that the Catholic Church (not just the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome) was given the Holy Spirit to watch over the Church and to guide it through its responsibilities which include interpretation.

Moreover, if you only simply rely on infallible declarations for certainty, then you are very very restricted, and uncertain about much, as no one knows for sure how many infallible teaching there are, or all of what parts of encyclicals are binding, and both need some degree of interpretation by non-infallible magisterium at some level. Like Scripture, the source could be pure but that does not necessarily prevent misconstruance. Meanwhile, the sedevacantists teach error (according to Rome) using nothing than writings of Rome, and can do so simply using infallible statements.

To them was not given the authority. Therefore they can only post opinions without weight. The sedevacantists do teach error, as do the Jansenites, as did the Cathars, as did the Marcionists et al. The fact that they can teach error from correct Scripture demonstrates that while Scripture is written as intended (inerrant), it cannot be infallible which refers to outcomes of interpretation.

As said, misuse of authority does not negate it. The Pharisees misused Scripture and their authority derived from it and Jesus reproved them by Scripture. But you validate an entity using Scripture and other sources to validate itself as infallible.

The authority of the Church is well documented in Scripture and can stand by itself. It also happens to be documented elsewhere.

You mean which ones tell us that the RCC is the one true Church? And that we need to submit to her? Surely you know which ones do not is the question.

Well, there are chauvinists of every stripe. The fact is that the Church is the Church, made up of the five original sees.

Surely you know the the word “Rome” is used because it is representative of the RCC, and “Rome has spoken, the matter is settled” (Augustine) is often quoted by Roman Catholics.

Often? I don't recall ever reading it on FR; and had to look it up on Google.

That the assuredly infallible magisterium (“AIM” for future use) does not prevent the need for fallible interpretation is what should see agreement.

Not sure what you mean here.

It is, but Rome's claim is based upon her infallible declaration that she is who she says she is, according to her AIM, which is infallibly declared to be infallible when speaking in accordance with her infallibly declared formula. And which presumes that she is worthy of the implicit trust that she requires.

We have the Faith that she is, handed down for 2000 years and supported by Scripture and other documentation. That is what I, as well as all Catholics, believe.

2,801 posted on 02/02/2011 7:05:06 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos

It is not enough attribution for me. I see that excerpt at Catholic.com which requires attribution. If you didn’t pull it from there, the source will help the mods enforce copyright restrictions which might apply elsewhere.


2,802 posted on 02/02/2011 7:06:18 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: metmom
How about having a go at staying on topic?

I am. I am demonstrating that Scripture can be used to support heresy from historical examples, not just by failed Catholics on FR.

2,803 posted on 02/02/2011 7:06:37 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg
It is not a personal attack to point out evidently unsourced excerpts. It can however ignite a flame war if the same poster is repeatedly needled with such accusations.

Dr. Eckleburg, if you see another post which looks like an unsourced excerpt, let me know by Freepmail.

2,804 posted on 02/02/2011 7:11:06 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: metmom
Where? Book, chapter, and verse, please.

You cannot find in any of the 3 Synoptic Gospels where Jesus tells the 70 that if they are not received, to shake the dust from their feet? Odd. I thought that you were a Bahble Bleever (tm) and knew it a whole lot better than a Catholic.

2,805 posted on 02/02/2011 7:11:21 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
Quix: According to Dr.E's group the OrthodPresbyterianC doctrinal beliefs, to believe that believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today -- is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation.

Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost.


This is what the OPC/PCA think of you. Also, since you do not toe their line of double predestination, but as a pentecostal follow methodist and arminian belief in a loving God, according to the OPC, your preachers are heretics and you follow a damnable heresy

Remember, this is what they think of you Pentecostals... The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.
2,806 posted on 02/02/2011 7:12:08 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom
I said that they were lost. I did not say that they were damned.

Semantics. Explain the practical difference.

Paul instructed us to turn away those who do not act Christian. To declare somebody to be damned is the province of Christ, not any man. Many antiCatholics, however, presume to take it upon themselves to make that declaration upon others. You hang out with bunch right here.

2,807 posted on 02/02/2011 7:14:06 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos

Unnecessarily stirring up discord amongst the bretheren is not

wise

. . . . is actually very hazardous spiritually.


2,808 posted on 02/02/2011 7:23:18 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Cronos; boatbums; Lera; Quix; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; caww; ...

Regarding the perpetuation of the Reformation (nor “reformatters,” which would be a clean install) being men like Charles Taze Russel, Ellen G White, Joseph Smith Jr etc.,

As you know, no. Such cults like cannot be said to be operating according to the primary tenet (SS) which defined historic Protestantism, as rather than actually practicing the supremacy of Scripture (which requires a more difficult quality of unity, by “manifestation of the truth” - 2Cor. 4:2), they are following Rome in effectively making a person or office elite superior doctrinal authority over the Scriptures, and like Rome, they require implicit trust in them (and boast of that manner of cultic unity).

While they hold to some Scripturally substantiated truths, they deny others, and like Rome, they add teachings which they wrest out of a few texts but which really depend upon their elitist claim to be uniquely correct interpreters.


“The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God.

“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God’s Church on matters of faith and morals-——this is what all must give..”

This, too, is why Catholics would never dream of calling in question the utterance of a priest in expounding Christian doctrine according to the teaching of the Church;”

“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.”

“He willingly submits his judgment on questions the most momentous that can occupy the mind of man-——questions of religion-——to an authority located in Rome.”

“So if God [via Rome] declares that the Blessed Virgin was conceived Immaculate, or that there is a Purgatory, or that the Holy Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, shall we say, “I am not sure about that. I must examine it for myself; I must see whether it is true, whether it is Scriptural?”

— Henry G. Graham, “What Faith Really Means”, (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 )

“The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question.” “The reason of this stand of his is that, for him, there can be no two sides to a question which for him is settled; for him, there is no seeking after the truth: - John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapter xxiii. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York )

We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii: [considered abrogated by later canon law]


2,809 posted on 02/02/2011 7:27:21 AM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: Quix

More relevant: http://www.barna.org/faith-spirituality/435-diversity-of-faith-in-various-us-cities

http://www.barna.org/faith-spirituality/100-catholics-have-become-mainstream-america

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Statistical_Correlations.html


2,810 posted on 02/02/2011 7:27:30 AM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: count-your-change
Nay, not so. In this the Reformation did not reform but only changed leadership. Murder in the name of Christ is murder.

I'll go along with that. Does that extend to Protestant murders of Catholics and other Protestants? Some would say that the only reason that Protestants did not murder on the scale of the Catholics is because they lacked the opportunity. However; we must consider that the current American (Protestant) policy in the Balkans and in the Middle East is directly resulting in the extermination of the native Catholics such as the Chaldeans in Iraq and the Copts in Egypt. Remember that for 500 years or better, the entire Middle East was Catholic, until the Muslims came. Also remember that Suleiman the Great was invited by the Hungarian Calvinists to invade Europe; all the Protestant nations sat by and watched the Battles of Vienna, where the Catholic armies twice only barely held back the Muslims. They were hoping that the Muslims would sweep through and the Protestants could divide the spoils with them.

As Jesus said to the Pharisees at Luke 11:48,’You are witnesses of the deeds of your forefathers and you give consent to them, these killed the prophets and you build tombs to them’.

Not justification, just pointing out that the Protestants were hardly sweetness and light. Cotton Mather was a case in point.

Anyone can go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and read the specious reasoning justifying and excusing and blame shifting ad nauseum.

The Catholic Encyclopedia is not a bad source, but not authoritative. Try the Vatican.va website instead.

2,811 posted on 02/02/2011 7:28:20 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Lera; metmom
You should read this

The Secret History of the Jesuits http://arcticbeacon.com/books/Paris-The_Secret_History_of_Jesuits%281975%29.pdf

Written by a former Jesuit Priest

It reads similar to metmom telling us about the true practices of the Catholic Church. I love the cover with a picture of the Crucified Jesus over a Nazi swastika. And the immediate attack on Ignatius of Loyola is priceless.

I am looking forward to finding one under the windshield wiper of my car one of these days.

2,812 posted on 02/02/2011 7:31:17 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Quix
What brethern? Presbyterians say you Pentecostals follow a damnable heresy, , they say (believing) that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today (is)a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation.

They say your Pentecostal preachers are heretics since they preach Arminian thought.
2,813 posted on 02/02/2011 7:31:57 AM PST by Cronos
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To: MarkBsnr; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ..
count-your-change: By the way, ever find where Christians are authorized to kill those that disagree with them? Recall our earlier conversation?

mm: Where? Book, chapter, and verse, please.

mb: You cannot find in any of the 3 Synoptic Gospels where Jesus tells the 70 that if they are not received, to shake the dust from their feet? Odd. I thought that you were a Bahble Bleever (tm) and knew it a whole lot better than a Catholic.

Except for the pesky detail that those verses don't support killing someone for disagreeing with them. They are no justification for the Roman Catholic church to engage in such behavior.

You'll have to try again for Scriptural support for the answer to c-y-c's question because that reply of yours was an

Epic Fail


2,814 posted on 02/02/2011 7:32:20 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Quix; Gamecock
What brethern? This is what the Presbyterians think of you Pentecostals:
Gamecock:
"This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics."

THIS is what they think of Pentecostalism... they are no brethern of yours...
2,815 posted on 02/02/2011 7:33:11 AM PST by Cronos
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To: MarkBsnr

Of course the Catholic church never engages in that sort of thing, right?

For one thing, they don’t expel the immoral brother.

They continue to eat with those who practice immorality.

The even take communion from those priests, for goodness sake.

And all the *anathemas* pronounced on those who disagree with Catholic pronouncements, well, that doesn’t really count I suppose.


2,816 posted on 02/02/2011 7:35:43 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: daniel1212

IOW...

Catholics, You are hereby prohibited from thinking for yourself.

Signed, the AIM.


2,817 posted on 02/02/2011 7:37:36 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: betty boop
Why not reread the passage?

Well so I did.

And so am still wondering why you think Jesus Christ had any problem at all resisting Satan's temptations. In the first place, Jesus didn't want any of the things Satan offered him (not that any of them were in Satan's gift in the first place).

In the first place, Jesus had been fasting for 40 days and 40 nights, and he was hungry. Have you ever fasted for 40 days and 40 nights? You are very weak. Wait a minute, you say, He is God. True, but He was also a man. If He were only God, then He had no need of food and Scripture would not have said He was hungry. Therefore we have to presume that His state paralleled that of a man - else why would it say that He fasted?

Second, satan was able to take Him and tempt Him and fly Him around the world. Does satan fly God the Father around the world and tempt Him? Scripture says tempt and Scripture means it. A parallel is in the Garden. Reread the account of His Passion and see His distress and His second great temptation. His sweat was as blood. Does that sound like these events were easily dismissed?

2,818 posted on 02/02/2011 7:37:55 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: daniel1212; boatbums; Lera; Quix; Gamecock
Daniel: Such cults like cannot be said to be operating according to the primary tenet (SS) which defined historic Protestantism

And the Presbyterians (OPC/PCA) think the same about you when they say that your beliefs that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today are .. a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation. and they say that your preachers, by sticking to Arminianism and not Calvinism are heretics preaching a damnable heresy

And, with just as much vitroil as they direct at Catholics, they will direct at you, because they think that
Gamecock:
"This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics."
The vitriol they have against Pentecostalism and Methodism is starkly apparent when they say that it teaches a satanic gospel
2,819 posted on 02/02/2011 7:41:58 AM PST by Cronos
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To: MarkBsnr; count-your-change
And you copied and pasted 3 of the 5 the quotes by c-y-c except these two.

But Catholics claim that THEY have the one true and apostolic church and must be viewed from the standpoint of their claims about themselves. If there are Protestants justifying similar acts I would respond in the same way. Why didn't you address these as well?

2,820 posted on 02/02/2011 7:43:08 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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