The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[topcat54]

When Religion Forum posters take the view that Israel is no longer God's chosen people or particularly blessed of God then I ask the posters to state their views towards Jews and races or genealogies because that particular belief is held by Christian Identity and other white supremacist groups, none of which are tolerated at all on Free Republic.

It is no secret that my views are essentially those of the vast majority of non-dispensational Christians for 2000 years, and that is how I have represented them on this forum for the last decade.

The “God's chosen people or particularly blessed of God” wrt modern Israel view is the new kid on the block, in my opinion.

See Not Replacement...Expansion!

[metmom]

Posting Scripture IS posting TRUTH in love. It is not drive by posting.

Israel is God’s chosen people. That has not been rescinded.

If you think it has been rescinded or that Israel is no longer God’s chosen people, state where in the Bible that occurred; book, chapter, and verse.

All the nations of the earth have indeed been blessed through Abraham, the fulfillment of which is in Jesus, the seed of Abraham.

I don’t regret posting Scripture to support my view.

There is nothing else to regret because I didn’t tell anyone what I was thinking.

[metmom]

Israel is Israel.

Making the distinction between the OT and *modern* Israel is.......

[topcat54]

Posting Scripture IS posting TRUTH in love. It is not drive by posting.

It is if you can explain how it supports your positions. Otherwise it's just a drive by.

Now, perhaps you can explain how Gen. 12 is speaking of modern Israel as opposed to Abraham, the father of many nations.

I don’t regret posting Scripture to support my view.

I'm sure. When will you start?

[aruanan]

Israel is God’s chosen people. That has not been rescinded.

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable."
--Romans 11

[Vegasrugrat]

Israel is God’s chosen people.

Israel of the New Testament is not a physical nation, it is the invisible nation of believers in Jesus Christ, regardless of race or origin of nation.

God Bless

[topcat54]

Israel is Israel.

Hardly.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, (Rom. 9:6)

Making the distinction between the OT and *modern* Israel is.......

Totally justified.

Biblical Israel vs. Modern Israel

Here are some characteristics of Biblical Israel that modern Israel does not share. The absence of these characteristics proves that modern Israel is in no sense related to Biblical Israel, therefore it cannot be a fulfillment of any biblical prophecies.

1. Biblical Israel was established as part of the covenant made with Abraham and the promises made with the Seed, Jesus Christ. (Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 24:7; Gal. 3:16)
2. Inclusion in Biblical Israel was by vow and obedience to God’s covenant, not strictly by lineage. (Gen. 17:23; Lev. 18:26; Rom. 2:28,29; 9:6,7)
3. Biblical Israel was identified as a nation when they corporately vowed to abide by the law of God as given through Moses. (Exo. 19:8)
4. Disobedience to the law of God was reason for individual excommunication from the nation of Israel, and temporal corporate punishment. (Exo. 12:15; Lev. 7:27; Lev. 18:29; Deut. 28:15)
5. Biblical Israel was governed by God-ordained representatives in the church (the priesthood with respect to the ceremonial) and the state (elders, judges, and kings with respect to the civil) as a single and unique kingdom under God. (Lev. 13:2; Deut. 17:9; 19:12; 21:19)
6. The judges of Biblical Israel was chosen directly by God. (Luke 22:30; James 1:1)
7. Biblical Israel could have its nationhood status revoked through disobedience. (Matt. 21:43; John 11:48)
8. The older covenant was never intended by God to be permanent, but was seen as giving way to a new covenant. (Jer. 31:31; Matt. 26:28; Heb. 8:13; 9:15; 12:24)
9. For Biblical Israel the law was seen as a tutor to Christ, not as a means of salvation. (Matt. 23:23; Luke 24:44; Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:24)
10. Faith and repentance always preceded Biblical Israel’s physical restoration and blessing. (1 Kings 8:47,48; Ezra 1:5; Jer. 27:22)
11. Restoration is clearly seen as an act of divine intervention, even by the nations. (Ezra 1:1; Ezekiel 37:4)
12. Faithfulness to God in our day is measured by a proper relationship to the new covenant, not to rabbinic traditions. (Matt. 5:20; 16:6; Luke 1:72; Rom. 11:27; 2 Cor. 3:6)
13. Modern Israel does not inhabit the land of promise. (Gen. 15:13)
14. Modern Israel is a large debtor nation.  The ratio of public debt to GDP is higher in Israel than in the US. Biblical Israel was to lend to others.  (Deut. 15:6)

[geologist]

Having read the majority of the postings to this thread, I see little clarification as to the facts of the Bible. Rather a good deal of time spent either insulting, denigrating or otherwise dissing each other.
When there are basic areas where God left it intentionally (it seems) vague or even hidden ... it is for a purpose. Either he does not want us to know until He opens our eyes to it ... in its time; or we are usurping His position and are athwart with His Word. God's Will, will Be of this we can be certain. Why do we believe He said to trust Him?

Is this discussion done in/with love for each other held in mind and answers created in such a way as to be kind and show loving intentions?

Sorry for butting into this discussion; it seems more like enemies that brothers. MOO

[topcat54]

Yeah, whatever.

Wouldn't be the first time a nut job has been granted a security clearance.

[Quix]

Feel free.

Good points.

However, WHEN I find folks seriously interested in genuine dialogue of a civil sort, I’m happy to rise to the occasion.

When folks seem to be primarily interested in making

ALMIGHTY GOD out to be a liar

and seemingly addictively prone to spewing nonsense to demonized deceptive tripe, I have decreasing patience with such and feel more than a little comfortable telling it like it is, from my perspective.

And today, I have a list of other priorities as well.

[Quix]

Wouldn't be the first time a nut job has been granted a security clearance.

THANKS for your very personalized labeling of me.

It's quite an honor coming from your level of awareness, paradoxically, of course.

[Quix]

[MarkBsnr]

Has SPREADING FALSE WITNESS become another Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling daily religious obligation and dogma?

No, but repeated unsubstantiated and dubious claims are met with, shall we say, doubt until proven. That is why so many claims of the children of the Reformation are met with the reaction that they are by Christians. If you have proofs, lay them out. Unsubstantiated claims are met with various responses which may include ridicule and derision. I have never ridiculed a claim made by you that has been substantiated, now, have I?

[presently no screen name]

I'm always hesitant to have any conversation with anyone that proudly proclaims they have the truth, let alone some one who might humbly proclaim it.....kind of makes one suspicious of them all.

You stay in your hesitancy and suspicious nature and I'll stay in TRUTH proudly; yet with humility. I see no problem with it. After all, according to Scripture, it will be like that for eternity.

Praise God! Thank You, Jesus! It's ALL about JESUS!

[Quix]

Uhhhhh.

UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS

has long been the virtually exclusive turf

of

The Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling

. . . particularly on FR.

. . . . claiming existence prior to 300AD

. . . claiming Mary’s asencion

. . . claiming Mary’s farcical perpetual virginity

. . . claiming Jesus exited Mary’s womb leaving her hymen intact

. . . claiming Mary is Queen of Heaven.

. . . claiming that Salvation can be had only through Mary’s agency

. . . claiming Mary shares hypostatic union with the Godhead’

. . . yada yada yada . . . the farcical fantasies spewed as fact never seem to end.

[Quix]

INDEED.

THE LION OF JUDAH

AIN’T NO WIMP

regardless of being infinitely humble.

[presently no screen name]

AMEN!

[MarkBsnr]

Uhhhhh. UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS has long been the virtually exclusive turf of The Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling

Either put up, or as the saying goes, shut up. You claimed security clearance. You have made many claims which make Joseph Smith look like a piker. I have yet to see any proofs at all. If we could believe you, your abode abuts the Grand Central Station of Galactic alien traffic and the Vatican and most of the world governments and large companies and NGOs are conniving with them in order to enslave the human race.

You make claim after claim after claim and get all indignant when anyone actually calls you out for any proof whatsoever. Grand conspiracy theories are linked to individuals' articles and websites who clearly have no presence in reality whatsoever. Why don't you link to somebody who doesn't eat a steady diet of either Lithium or street pharmaceutals?

The fault is yours. Your presentation and arguments consist of multicoloured and multifonted blather, or articles from people that are not stable enough to mow your lawn on a sunny day. You claim to be in academia. Very well. Present a paper on a thread that would be analagous to a doctoral thesis and let us see your proofs. Convince me.

[presently no screen name]

I'm anti the prophecy pimps

And we read what you are pimping.

Nice dodge. Gen. 12 says nothing about modern Israel.

God never changes. Praise God! The Father of Abraham, Issac and Jacob!

[geologist]

Many repeat what they were taught, in a kind of faith and hope: it is true and it is the ground they are standing upon. They defend it valiantly, perhaps due to fear of change or fear of being mislead, or fear they do not have the truth. It is complex and many are more insecure than others. It is my hope and intent to not weaken a brother or cause them to become dispirited or confused.

God is in them and will open their eyes as they are ready for knowledge and growth. They will be spending time in His Word if they are seeking in trruth.

Perhaps I am being simplistic but I trust God to be Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, and He will enlighten all who in truth seek to know Him.

Blessed be the LORD!