Two Judgments?

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[Salvation]

Two Judgments?

For those Evangelicals who understand their teachings about the "Great White Seat of Christ", the "Judgment Seat of Christ" and God's judgment of sin at the Cross, this could be helpful. Some Evangelicals are nervous about asking Christians in heaven to pray for us because they think the final judgment hasn't occurred yet. The Evangelist, Calvin held that the final destiny is not decided until the last day of history. (Inst. III, 25) This is the view of most Evangelicals.

Catholics believe that there will be a final "general" judgment at the end of history but that there is a "particular" judgment at the time of death: that immediately after death, the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God. Then at the end of the ages there will be a "general judgment" when the deeds of all will be known by all and nothing will be hidden. (Mk 12:38-40, Lk 12:1-3, Jn 2:20-21, Rom 2:16, 1 Cor 4:5) At that time Catholics think we will be reunited with our bodies, although Paul makes it clear that we they will be spiritual bodies. (1 Cor 15:44)

Here is what I read on Evangelical website:

The Judgment Seat of Christ is an evaluation of a Christian's production during his Christian life on earth. There is no judgment of sin at the Judgment Seat. Believer's sins were judged at the Cross, and Christ was our atonement for sin. (2)

Now this kind of contradicts the Calvinists noted above. So there is quite a bit of division among Evangelical denominations on this point.

It appears to me that Evangelicals have taken the Catholic concept of "Particular Judgment" and moved it from the time of "death" to the moment that the person surrenders to Christ (born again). At the "born again" moment they join in God's judgment of sin on the cross. To me that's two judgments. One at "born again" experience and another at the end of the world. So Catholics and Evangelicals are not as far away from each other as it first appears. The only difference is that Evangelicals infer that the first judgment occurs when they are born again (they are joined to God's judgment of sin on the cross), and Catholics believe the first judgment occurs at death. Both Catholics and most Evangelicals believe we will be judged at the end of the world.

The Evangelical Model as I understand it

At every Evangelical funeral I hear people saying "He is with the Lord now." They are confident the person is in heaven (although some would say he's in a 'coma' until the final judgment.) Nevertheless, they believe the person is in heaven. We Catholics think the faithful guy who "dies" is dancing and singing and rejoicing in heaven.

The Evangelist Billy Graham said at the last crusade in Ottawa. "We don't know when the end of the world will be, but the end of the world for us is the day we die."

Where are the two judgments in the Bible?

Some Scriptures that Catholics use to support the doctrine of "Particular" judgment at the time of death are: the penitent thief was promised that his soul instantly on leaving the body would be in the state of the blessed: "This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).

St. Paul (2 Cor 5) longs to be absent from the body that he may be present to the Lord, evidently understanding death to be the entrance into his reward (cf. Philemon 1:21 sq.).

Rev 20:4-6, 12-14.

Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.

For these reasons the Catholic Church has no problem considering that faithful Christians who die are "with the Lord" in Heaven. The Church has no problem with giving some of these great Christians the title of "Canonized Saints." The Church has no problem instructing people to invite these Saints to pray for us on earth.

There is a song that is a "Top 10" Christian hit by Evangelical singer Chris Rice. It says "I just want to be with you [God], I want this waiting to be over." Catholics say "Amen" to that.

[Salvation]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Particular Judgment

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified

Returning to the Creator (1020)

In the funeral liturgy, the Church speaks with assurance to the dying: "Go forth, Christian soul from this world. May you return to your Creator who formed you from the dust of the earth. May you see your Redeemer face to face" (Prayer of Commendation).

Judged Immediately (1021-1022)

Death ends the time to accept or to reject Christ's grace. The New Testament speaks of a judgment immediately after death. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and Jesus' words to the good thief, speak of a final destiny of the soul which is different for each person.

Every man receives his eternal retribution immediately after death. He enters into Christ's blessedness (immediately or after a purification) or into everlasting damnation. "At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love" (St. John of the Cross).

Going to Heaven (1023-1025)

Those who die in God's friendship and are perfectly purified will see God face to face. "The souls of the blessed have been, are, and will be in heaven before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment. They see God face to face, without the mediation of any creature" (Pope Benedict XII).

This perfect life with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (and with all the saints and angels) is called "heaven." It is complete happiness and the fulfillment of the deepest human longings. Although retaining their own identity, the elect live "in Christ" (Phil 1:23). "Where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom" (St. Ambrose).

Doors Opened by Jesus (1026)

Jesus Christ has "opened heaven to us," giving us full possession of the fruits of his Redemption and making us partners in his heavenly glorification. Heaven is the community which is perfectly incorporated with him.

Images of Heaven (1027)

This communion with God is beyond all human understanding. The New Testament uses images to express heaven (wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, paradise). "No eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" (1 Cor 2:9).

Seeing God (1028-1029)

God can be seen only because he gives man the capacity to see him. This is the "beatific vision." "How great will your happiness be, to be allowed to see God and to delight in the joy of immortality" (St. Cyprian).

The blessed in heaven continue to fulfill God's will. With Christ they "reign forever and ever" (Rev 22:5).

[Salvation]

Definitions

Judgment

I. Particular. This takes place immediately after the death of each person and irrevocably settles the soul's salvation or damnation, even though it may have to undergo temporal punishment in Purgatory.

II. General. This takes place after the final Resurrection, when the body will share in the reward or punishment of the soul, and when the righteousness of God's ways will be manifestly vindicated before all creation.

(Definitions from A Catholic Dictionary, 1951)

[Salvation]

Catholic Discussion Ping!

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[Lee N. Field]

The Evangelical Model as I understand it

Ping to look over later.

[Salvation]

It was most revealing to me.

[Salvation]

References in Scripture:

• But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment" Matthew 12:36
• "For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:17-18
• "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire" Apocalypse 20:12-15
• "Therefore judge not before the time; until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise from God." 1 Corinthians 4:5
• "And take heed to yourselves, lest perhaps your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and the cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly. For as a snare shall it come upon all that sit upon the face of the whole earth. Watch ye, therefore, praying at all times, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are to come, and to stand before the Son of man" Luke 21:34-36
• "And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men, that all should every where do penance. Because he hath appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in equity, by the man whom he hath appointed; giving faith to all, by raising him up from the dead" Acts 17:30-31
• "But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up. Seeing then that all these things are to be dissolved, what manner of people ought you to be in holy conversation and godliness? Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of the Lord, by which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with the burning heat? Wherefore, dearly beloved, waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found before him unspotted and blameless in peace" 2 Peter 3:10-12,14
• "And now, little children, abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be confounded by him at his coming" 1 John 2:28
• "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" Hebrews 9:27
• "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." Matthew 10:14-15
• "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly from temptation, but to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be tormented. And especially them who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government, audacious, self willed, they fear not to bring in sects, blaspheming" 2 Peter 2:9-10
• "For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again" Matthew 7:2
• "Grudge not, brethren, one against another, that you may not be judged. Behold the judge standeth before the door" James 5:9
   

[Salvation]

Church Teaching:

• "The belief in the general judgment has prevailed at all times and in all places within the Church. It is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds: "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead" (Apostles' Creed). He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead" (Nicene Creed). "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds" (Athanasian Creed)." 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, General Judgment
• "The first takes place when each one of us departs this life; for then he is instantly placed before the judgment­seat of God, where all that he has ever done or spoken or thought during life shall be subjected to the most rigid scrutiny. This is called the particular judgment.
  The second occurs when on the same day and in the same place all men shall stand together before the tribunal of their Judge, that in the presence and hearing of all human beings of all times each may know his final doom and sentence. The announcement of this judgment will constitute no small part of the pain and punishment of the wicked; whereas the good and just will derive great reward and consolation from the fact that it will then appear what each one was in life. This is called the general judgment." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Creed, Article VII
• "Moreover we define that according to the general disposition of God, the souls of those who die in actual mortal sin go down into hell immediately (mox) after death and there suffer the pain of hell. Nevertheless, on the day of judgment all men will appear with their bodies "before the judgment seat of Christ" to give an account of their personal deeds, "so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body" (2 Cor. 5.10)." Encyclical on the Beatific Vision of God by Pope Benedict XII in 1336
   

[Salvation]

Summary

Let no Catholic believe otherwise, we will all experience a particular judgment immediately after we die, and a general judgment at the end of the world. Our judgment will take into account our "every idle word", as Scripture states. Scripture and the history of Church teaching have always supported this and it is not Catholic to believe otherwise.

[naturalized]

is it necessary to assume the same clock is ticking and runs in the same direction on earth as it is in heaven?

[sasportas]

For Evangelicals who read this, bear in mind that the RCC follows Origin and Augustine’s Amillennial theory. Which puts a most interesting spin on the the first resurrection and the binding of Satan that begins the millennial reign of Rev. 20, and has the RCC ruling as kings and priests. Therefore, instead of two bodily resurrections, one at the beginning, the other at the end, of the millennial, they have one bodily resurrection and one judgment remaining.

Never mind that many of the church fathers (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc.) were Chiliasts (Premillennialist). And these are the same church fathers we see the Papists on these threads continually citing for justification of their beliefs. Augustine’s interpretation has served the RCC quite nicely, providing justification for their system of priests, and Popes lording themselves over Europe for a thousand years. No wonder the Popes thought they had the authority to burn thousands at the stake, their interpretation of Rev. 20 has them ruling over God’s kingdom!

The natural flow of Revelation, of course, does not allow for such a strained interpretation. The house of Romanism rests upon a very dubious eschatological foundation.

[Salvation]

I think you mean Origen’s and Augustine’s

[Campion]

Never mind that many of the church fathers (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc.) were Chiliasts

I assume you'll have references for that shortly?

[LiteKeeper]

mega dittoes

[sasportas]

It’s common knowledge that they were premillennialists. It is late, maybe somebody else reading this wants to go to the trouble, I’m not going to dig through their writings tonight to get their quotes for you.

[triumphant values]

Augustine’s interpretation has served the RCC quite nicely, providing justification for their system of priests, and Popes lording themselves over Europe for a thousand years.

Of course, you'll be able to explain the priest and Patriarch system in all of the Orthodox churches, where Augustine had little influence.

[verga]

It’s common knowledge that they were premillennialists. It is late, maybe somebody else reading this wants to go to the trouble, I’m not going to dig through their writings tonight to get their quotes for you.

Actually what is common knowledge, is that with out proof it is just an opinion.

I am not saying you are wrong, only that you are merely expressing something that may or may not be factual.

[sayuncledave]

It isn’t late anymore; it’s early. And I’m getting ready to go to work, while my kids are on a snow day. Be so good as to provide your facts, sasportas. I’ll make sure that I bring my books to work, so that I can read them in context at lunch. Not that I’m any expert. But you made a call, and I’d very much like to see your proof. Not “common knowledge.” Simple recitations of fact. Otherwise, please refrain from statements you aren’t backing up. I could say that my kids all have green hair and duck feet. That neither makes it so, nor does it make for “common knowledge.” The apparent dislike you seem to feel towards the Roman Catholic Church is largely your own lookout, though there are folks here who would try to save you from that. However, attempts at understanding one another are not all bad, and, if your reread this article, you’ll find no assaults upon Evangelicals, only statements of positions. Maybe sleep is of benefit.

[Vegasrugrat]

"Some Evangelicals are nervous about asking Christians in heaven to pray for us because they think the final judgment hasn't occurred yet."

I am Lutheran (WELS) and I would agree with you on the particular and general judgments. I will be judged the moment I die and there will be a general judgment at the end of the world. (No purgatory, does not exist)

Having agreed with you on the judgments, I would disagree as to why I would not ask Christians in heaven to pray for us. It is not a biblical practice. The bible is clear:

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. (1 Timothy 2:5)

I would also disagree with judgment occurring when a person is born again:

12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! (1 Corinthians 10:12)

Our Lord Jesus Christ is a direct link for us to God, it just does not get any better, pray to Christ!

God Bless

[wbarmy]

The first time I read that line it struck me as very discordant. I really don't know of any Evangelicals who think of it in those terms. Yes, the Final Judgment has not occurred, but at the time of each persons death, their judgment is sealed, by them, by not accepting Jesus while alive. The idea of standing firm is not to be presumptuous of our Salvation, but always striving forward. The Bible, in my opinion, does support OSAS. We are not nervous about asking Christians in Heaven to pray for us, we just never think about it. I have actually been praying and studying on that exact point because of another posting concerning Saints in Heaven offering the prayers of the Saints before the Throne.

[SumProVita]

“Never mind that many of the church fathers (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc.) were Chiliasts

I assume you’ll have references for that shortly? “

I would LOVE to see those references too. ;-))))