Posted on 01/06/2011 2:31:49 PM PST by Paragon Defender
BY: Orson Scott Card
"I asked my priest," he said, "and he told me that Mormons are a cult."
Setting aside the obvious riposte ("What did you think your priest would tell you, that Mormonism was true Christianity as restored by God to living prophets?"), I think it's worth considering just what we mean by "cult" and seeing whether it applies to the Mormon Church.
Cult as Bad Word
Anti-Mormons use "cult" the way gay activists use "homophobe"--as an ad hominem epithet hurled to try to silence any persuasive opponent whose ideas can't be countered on their merits.
When used this way, "cult" just means "religion I want you to fear so much you won't listen to them." Or even, "religion I want you to hate so much that you will remove it from the list of churches that deserve constitutional protection."
But just as "homophobe" has a core meaning (someone with a pathological fear of homosexuality to the degree that it interferes with his life), so also with "cult." The only reason it works as name-calling is because there really are religious groups that do--and should--scare us.
There are real examples of what we mean by cults: Jim Jones' group that destroyed itself in mass murder and suicide in Guyana, or those sneaker-wearing folks who killed themselves to join aliens approaching behind a comet. And even though the Branch Davidians may not have been as monstrous as they were depicted in the media, they still clearly fall within what we mean by that word.
What do they have in common?
Charismatic Founder. Cults gather around charismatic individuals who are the sole source of truth to their followers.
Exploitation. The leader enriches himself through the financial contributions of the members, or gathers personal power that he uses to exploit members in other ways to benefit himself. If the group survives the leader's death, it remains a cult if his successors continue that exploitation.
Automatons. The members are discouraged from thinking for themselves, and, insofar as possible, are turned into unquestioning "obedience machines."
Withdrawal and Isolation. Perhaps because exploitation and obedience are easiest to maintain when the ordinary world can't offer its distractions and attractions, cults tend to withdraw physically, seeking ever greater isolation. This is often used as part of the conversion process, to keep the prospective member from hearing counterarguments. The gathering of money to help the poor or pay for meetinghouses or publications can be called "exploitation." The natural desire of converts to live according to the teachings of their leader can look like lockstep blind obedience to those who live a different way. And if outsiders persecute the new religion, it is only natural that adherents will want to band together and get away, if only for a few hours at a time, to be able to practice their religion in peace. All religions have a body of teachings that becomes a lens through which the believers see the world around them. To those who don't believe, the lens seems to be a distortion of reality--though of course, those unbelievers are merely distorting reality their own way, through their own lens. No one sees reality without passing the data through the lens of their own preconceptions. All religions also form a community, however loosely organized, of like-minded believers who set the standard of correctness. Whether that standard is rigid or relaxed, those who cross it are expelled from the community and are treated as heretics, apostates, or infidels. Severe treatment of heretics can be found from the lowliest cult to the largest church, from the most rigid sect to "open"-minded, post-religious academia. You have to get fairly close to a new religion in order to see whether it is acting like a cult or like a religion. Most of those who hurl the word "cult," however, do not bother to get close. And those who do are often so grimly determined to attack that they distort all evidence in order to support the charge. Exploitation? As for exploitative leadership, this charge is absolutely false and always has been. Joseph Smith passed the money test with flying colors: He died poor and in debt, not because of profligate spending, but because any money that flowed into his hands flowed right back out again in attempts to benefit the saints and build the church. In the years since, a handful of church offices have become salaried, but the salaries are merely enough to sustain normal family life. The perks of wealth are shunned even by those church leaders who were rich before being called to one of those rare salaried offices. And church leaders constantly struggle to eliminate the sycophancy, the cult of personality, and the general "sucking up" that are bound to arise in any hierarchical organization. Automatons? Those who have actually lived in a Mormon ward--and especially those who have tried to lead a group of Mormons in any kind of activity--can all affirm one truth: Mormons may well be the most stubborn, independent-minded group of people ever assembled as a religious community. Joseph Smith received a revelation that established the only style of leadership that actually works in the Mormon church (or, in the long run, anywhere): You can only lead by persuasion, by love, by patience, by your own willingness to learn from those you lead. Every now and then, some local Mormon leader will try to give orders or attempt to manipulate people into doing things his way. But he very quickly learns that the more he does that, the less obedient we Mormons become. Far from being robots, most of us Mormons are, by inclination and by doctrine, determined to make up our own minds about everything. It's a core doctrine of Mormonism that each member of the church is personally and individually responsible for their own relationship with God. Isolation? As for the cultish trait of isolating converts from any other influence, or brainwashing them till they can't think for themselves, our method of teaching would-be proselytes is the opposite. We usually teach them in their own homes. Our missionaries come for a little while and then leave them to themselves to read, ponder, and pray. We counter the attacks of anti-Mormons by telling the truth about our beliefs and practices, not by trying to cut off contact with our opponents. Far from becoming isolated, a new convert to Mormonism is taught to be more respectful and loving to parents, spouse, children, and other family members and friends. They usually do better at their careers and education, and if withdrawal takes place it is because their new Mormon lifestyle and beliefs are rejected by their family or friends. Indeed, calling Mormonism a cult is usually an attempt to get people to behave like robots, blindly obeying the command that they reject Mormonism without any independent thought. Kettles, as they say, calling the pot black. Here's the simplest statement I can make: If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it, and I would not be in it.
Are All Religions Cults?
It's worth pointing out that there are very few religions of any size or influence that did not begin with a charismatic founder and whose members did not seem, to outsiders, to behave in much the way I've just described. A humble, wise teacher can always be charged with "setting himself up as the sole source of truth" merely because he offers any unusual idea.
How Does Mormonism Measure Up?
Joseph Smith was a charismatic leader, but he was murdered 156 years ago. Nowadays, we have leaders who, while sometimes gifted at communication, are rarely of the dramatic, movement-founding type. Indeed, I feel safe in saying that the majority in my lifetime have been rather dull and gray, and they are followed far more because of their office than because of any personal charisma.
By any honest measure, Mormon church leaders, from Joseph Smith on, have a remarkable record of genuine humility. They really do try to be the servants rather than the masters of the saints.
Kettles and Pots
On all these points, I daresay that the Mormon church is less cult-like than many of the religions that delight in calling us one.
Well your creds on that one seems OK
Now how are you on the Trinity ???
If you find no use for contention, then what are you doing here in the middle of this little firefight? For Pete’s sake, that’s what the point of these discussions is. We are here to contend for our ideas and prove them out through a vigorous discussion. If you have no use for contention, there must not be much passion in you. Or maybe you are just being passive aggressive.
When PD posted this "I'm-not-a-cultist-'cause-if-I-was-a-cultist-I'd-know-it" thread by Card [seriously...is this the best apologetic logic one of Mormonism's most famous writers has come up with???]...anyway, I started thinking what makes Mormonism a personality cult.
And the answer, as I was driving around, that I came up with was: Exactly what earth-moving revelations within Mormonism came from anybody other than Smith?
Oh sure...two manifestos by ensuing Lds "prophets" undid Smith's outward racism and some Mormon polygamy. But they didn't take away the racist passages in the BoM or the Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine & Covenants; nor did they take away Smith's D&C 132 celestial polygamy nor Mormonism's STILL-intact policy of eternal polygamy & future earthly polygamy!
Basically, just about everything Mormon can be traced to Smith as origin & filter!
Mormons even trust Smith over the Bible!
* Bible says hell is eternal! (Smith rejected that)
* Bible says salvation is by grace thru faith! (Smith rejected that)
* Bible says God is Spirit (John 4); (Smith rejected that by saying he has a body of flesh & bones)
* Bible says there's one TRUE God; (Smith rejected that)
* Bible says God is omnipresent; (Smith said his influence was everywhere; but not He Himself)
* Bible says God created all ex-nihilo (book of Hebrews); (Smith rejected that by saying God was a mere "organizer" of eternal matter)
* Bible says marriage for time only; (Smith said it was eternal)
* Bible says angels are distinct from men; (Smith said men became angels)
* Bible says Jesus Christ is our key filtered prophet -- and HIM ONLY now (Heb. 1:1-2); (Smith had people look to Smith as the key "prophet")
* NT says the primary temple now is the flesh & blood Body of Christ; (Smith said primary temple focus is man-made buildings Mormons put up)
Etc.
lol, they blamed it on those evil Mid-western baptists
Who is Jesus Christ?
LOL
Vendome humbly(whatever that means) apologizes for his posts to you.
I zipped past your postings since signing up and you have some pretty good thinking there. I actually like your posts.
Still your posts on this thread are nothing like the ones you have at the “excommunication” thread and they were good.
Welcome nOOb.
Post on.
“i think you are LDS” Really???? Joseph Smith was a false prophet, not a Christian therefore he was Anti-Christ according to the Bible and LDS are deceived into believing one big lie! My point is many posters believe unknown doctrines to the historical Church, yet accuse LDS of doing the same thing. I am making people think about the foundation of their faith and does it line up with the Bible. Case in point, the Bible teaches Baptismal regeneration and the Church has taught this doctrine for 2,000 years. The Nicene Creed, drawn up to fight Arianism, states “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins” If you reject this doctrine, you reject historical, orthodox Christianity. Some people are uncomfortable with having this fact pointed out. But, i believe the truth will set you free! ( still think i am LDS? LOL!! )
There is a big difference between having hermaneutical arguments over Scripture without damaging the fundamentals; and discarding Scripture altogether (or changing it to suit one’s theology) like the mormons have done.
LDS is a cult not simply because I say it is: it is a cult because if meets the very definition of the word.
I mean, c'mon, YR...labeling somebody else's (especially a distinguished gentleman like Godzilla) attempted conversation & dialogue as "rantings"???
That's not being "contentious?" [And does that now mean the finger you have pointed -- "Satan loves contention" -- is pointed back @ you???]
Are you going to tell us that you usually daily pinpoint somebody else's comments as "rants" & that it's just a "routine" vocab word for ya???
Boy, you & Resty are running neck & neck for the "Boomerang honors of the week" award! See Infamous 'Breaking News' Thread
You & Resty have both told us something today is or isn't of Satan -- & then have proceeded to link arms with him in that process!
There is only one true eternal God and He has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One God, three persons, all equal, all to be worshipped, all eternal. No other gods before or after the One God. This is the historical, orthodox belief! Pass the test?
Did you see my falling on my sword apology?
LOL
I saw your post regarding JW, LDS, etc on the “excommunication” thread.
I apologize again.
Damn sword hurts too. Gonna need a doctor pretty soon.
And you are correct about Nicene. I think most people don;t really understand doctrines or even their own doctrine. You won’t find that among the Flying Inmans. We are probably a little over read and allow for making mistakes or new information.
Welcome to FR.
If your point is some groups are closer to historical, orthodox Christianity than others, i agree. If your point is there are groups that reject so much historical, orthodox Christian belief, that they can’t be called Christian, again i agree. If your point is there isn’t any true visible Church on earth and any group that “believes in Jesus” is part of the Church, i disagree.
no apologies needed, we are adults!!
Lying in this “church” is “hiding pearls from the swine;” stealing is taking as the Lord’s agents; seducing other people’s wives is exalting, and killing people is saving them.
Wilhelm Ritter von Wymetal “Joseph Smith the prophet, his family and friends” (1886) p 165.
Great! I’ll be back in a little while.
Gotta try some stiptic, Celox and pressure to staunch the bleeding.
LOL
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