Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ

LDS.org ^ | Dennis B. Neuenschwander

[Paragon Defender]

Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ

By Elder Dennis B. Neuenschwander Of the Seventy

 

 

 

Dennis B. Neuenschwander, “Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ,” Ensign, Jan 2009, 16–22

Adapted from a presentation to the Seventy.

 

 

 

In the Doctrine and Covenants we read that Joseph Smith was “called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ” (D&C 20:2). The call of an Apostle is first to witness or testify of Jesus Christ. Old Testament prophets testified of His coming. The New Testament Apostles bore personal witness of Christ’s being and of the absolute reality of His Resurrection. This apostolic witness was the basis of their teaching. “Ye shall be witnesses unto me” (Acts 1:8) was Jesus’s instruction to the original Twelve. Peter testified on the day of Pentecost to the Jews who had gathered “out of every nation” (Acts 2:5) that “this Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses” (Acts 2:32). Similarly, Paul wrote to the Corinthians that Jesus “was seen of me also” (1 Corinthians 15:8). The sure witness of Christ’s being and the reality of His Resurrection is the first pillar of apostolic testimony.

The second pillar is centered on the Savior’s redemptive and saving power. Peter teaches that to the Lord “give all the Prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Without these twin pillars of testimony concerning Christ, there could be no Apostle. Such testimonies are born of experience, divine command, and instruction. For example, Luke writes that Christ showed Himself to the Apostles “alive after his passion … being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3).

How does the Prophet Joseph Smith fit into these apostolic requirements? The answer is “Perfectly.”

The First Vision

Joseph Smith’s apostolic instruction began in 1820. Pondering the questions of religion, he soon found that there was no way to reason or argue one’s opinion to an authoritative conclusion concerning the correctness of the various churches or their doctrines. Short of a divine manifestation, young Joseph could add only one more opinion to the already existing “war of words and tumult of opinions” (Joseph Smith—History 1:10). But Joseph’s questions on religion were answered by the personal and physical manifestation of God the Father and His divine and living Son, Jesus Christ—an experience referred to as the First Vision.

Like that of the original Apostles, Joseph’s experience with Deity was direct and personal. There was no need for the opinion of others or the deliberations of a council to define what he saw or what it came to mean to him. Joseph’s vision was at first an intensely personal experience—an answer to a specific question. Over time, however, illuminated by additional experience and instruction, it became the founding revelation of the Restoration.

As apostolic as this manifestation of Christ’s being, existence, and Resurrection was to Joseph Smith, it was not the only thing Jesus wanted to teach him. The boy Joseph’s first lesson arose from the manifestation of Christ’s absolute, omnipotent, and divine power. Joseph learned firsthand at least one meaning of the redeeming and saving power of Christ when he prayed in the grove. As he began to pray, “Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction” (Joseph Smith—History 1:15). With every bit of energy Joseph had, he began to call upon God to deliver him from the grasp of this enemy.

“At the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction … , I saw a pillar of light. …

“It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound” (Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17).

Joseph Smith’s confrontation with the adversary is reminiscent of an experience Moses had, about which the Prophet would learn some few years later. Unlike the boy Joseph, however, Moses saw God’s greatness first and then was confronted with the power of the adversary before being delivered from his influence. (See Moses 1.)

The difference in the order of events is significant. Moses was already far into maturity and had much knowledge and influence prior to this event. By displaying His magnificent power to Moses before he faced the adversary, the Lord helped Moses put his life into perspective. After experiencing God’s glory, Moses said, “Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed” (Moses 1:10). This incident enabled Moses to withstand the temptations of the adversary that followed.

Joseph Smith, on the other hand, was an inexperienced young man, who in his lifetime would repeatedly face adversarial power and the overwhelming problems it brings. By facing the adversary first, then being saved from his assault by the appearance of the Father and the Son, Joseph learned this indelible lesson: as great as the power of evil might be, it must always withdraw with the appearance of righteousness.

This lesson was critical in Joseph’s apostolic education. He needed this knowledge not only because of the personal trials that lay ahead of him but also because of the overwhelming opposition he would face in founding and directing the Church.

The boy Joseph went into the grove seeking wisdom, and wisdom he received. His apostolic instruction had begun. Among the great apostolic lessons of this First Vision were both the physical nature of the Savior and Heavenly Father and the initial and fundamental lessons relating to Their power—each a pillar of apostolic testimony.

The Book of Mormon

Joseph Smith’s early apostolic instruction continued with his translation of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon gave Joseph access to “the fulness of the everlasting Gospel” (Joseph Smith—History 1:34), principles that were necessary to understand even prior to the organization of the Church. The Prophet was introduced to numerous “plain and most precious” (1 Nephi 13:26) prophetic and apostolic testimonies regarding the Savior, all of which served as models for him.

Indeed, the Book of Mormon prophets employ over 100 titles in their teachings of Christ, each of which helped Joseph understand the Savior’s divine role.1 By virtue of these teachings, Joseph Smith became intimately acquainted with ancient prophets, giving him insight into the divine purpose of his responsibilities.

The Book of Mormon illuminates the universality of Christ’s Atonement. The Savior’s holy sacrifice is not confined to the borders of the Holy Land of His day or even restricted to the apostolic world of the original Twelve. The Atonement encompasses all of God’s creations—past, present, and future. What an impression Jacob’s teaching of the “infinite atonement” (2 Nephi 9:7) must have made on the mind of young Joseph, especially in contrast to Christian teachings at the time.

The Book of Mormon also introduces the universality of the Resurrection and other doctrines relating to it. Discourses on this doctrine by Lehi, Jacob, King Benjamin, Abinadi, Alma, Amulek, Samuel the Lamanite, and Moroni are all rich sources of instruction.

During the translation of the Book of Mormon, the Prophet received additional valuable personal instruction concerning the redemptive and saving power of Christ. In 1828 Martin Harris persuaded Joseph to lend him the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon manuscript. When Martin Harris lost those pages, the Prophet felt an enormous despair.2 His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recorded that Joseph exclaimed: “Oh, my God! … All is lost! all is lost! What shall I do? I have sinned—it is I who tempted the wrath of God. … How shall I appear before the Lord? Of what rebuke am I not worthy from the angel of the Most High?”3

For well over a month the Lord left Joseph in this terrible condition of remorse.4 Then came relief and the apostolic lesson. The Lord told Joseph:

“The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught. …

“For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him” (D&C 3:1, 4).

These words carefully describe what Joseph Smith had been experiencing. He had learned the exacting nature of the apostolic call and to whom the Apostle, at all cost, owes his loyalty. “Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words,” Joseph was told, “yet you should have been faithful” (D&C 3:7–8). Joseph Smith had lost access to the plates for a season and had been taught an invaluable lesson. Subsequently, the plates were returned, and his position as translator restored.

How critical were the lessons provided by the translation of the Book of Mormon as Joseph Smith grew in his apostolic calling! The Book of Mormon is the “keystone of our religion”5 because it contains so many prophetic testimonies of Christ and stands as a tangible witness of the Restoration.

Continuing Revelation and Scripture

After finishing the translation of the Book of Mormon in 1829 and organizing the Church in 1830, Joseph Smith had the opportunity to receive continuing apostolic education through the process of translating other scripture. This included three years of translating the Bible and, beginning in 1835, translating the book of Abraham. Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible expanded his understanding of the role of Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles. It also resulted in additional revelation, namely the book of Moses.

The book of Moses provided the Prophet with important knowledge about the Savior’s ministry, including His role in the Creation. “The Lord spake unto Moses, saying: … I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things” (Moses 2:1). Further, He said, “And worlds without number have I created; … and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33).

The book of Moses clarified Christ’s relationship to the Father in the premortal existence and reinforced the Prophet’s understanding of the ascendant power of righteousness. One of the most beautiful of all the apostolic lessons that came to Joseph Smith in this revelation was the confirmation of God’s love. It was so different from the harsh, unforgiving, and judgmental personage so many believed God to be; the book of Moses reveals a God of infinite compassion. Enoch saw that the “God of heaven … wept” (Moses 7:28) over those who would not receive Him. Wishing to know how it was possible, Enoch was given an answer that has a familiar biblical feel to it: “I [have] given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father. … Wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?” (Moses 7:33, 37; see also Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37–39).

Through the translation of the book of Moses, the Prophet also became more acquainted with the redeeming and saving power of the Savior. As the Lord said, this earth was created “by the word of my power” (Moses 1:32) for the purpose of bringing “to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Many long years before the Savior taught Thomas and the Twelve that “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6), He revealed to Moses that “this is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time” (Moses 6:62).

The First Vision in the grove, the translation of the Book of Mormon, the revision of the Bible, the revelation of the book of Moses, and the translation of the book of Abraham laid the basic foundation of the Church, largely through the rapidly expanding knowledge and testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith relating to Jesus Christ.

Revelations given to him and compiled in the Doctrine and Covenants contain a wealth of knowledge concerning the Savior. One could research the numerous topics and cross-references of the Topical Guide and Guide to the Scriptures referring to Jesus Christ and still not understand the breadth of information on the Savior that the Prophet Joseph Smith brought to the world. I am grateful to know that Jesus was “in the beginning with the Father” (D&C 93:21). I am grateful to know that He “suffered these things for [me], that [I] might not suffer if [I] would repent” (D&C 19:16).

My Testimony of What the Prophet Revealed

I am grateful for yet one other thing about the Savior’s ministry that stirs my soul deeply. From studying the promises of Malachi, Moroni’s initial visit with Joseph, the Savior’s words to the Nephites, and the visit of Elijah in the Kirtland Temple, I learn that God loves His children and has provided a way for each to return to Him. I know of no doctrine more just, no teaching that gives more hope than that of redemption of the dead. I am so grateful for the revelations that teach me that the Savior’s Atonement reaches to those who have lived, loved, served, and hoped for a better day yet never heard of Jesus or had the opportunity to embrace His gospel. This knowledge alone would be sufficient to convert me to the gospel if I knew nothing else at all. Here, at least for me, is the ultimate testimony of Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice.

What, then, can be said of the incomparable saving power of Christ? That which Joseph Smith learned in the Sacred Grove about the power of righteousness overcoming evil foreshadows the final scene. So reveals the Lord:

“I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—

“Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment” (D&C 19:2–3).

Our own testimonies of the Savior are framed by the testimony and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Is it any wonder then that the Prophet taught that “the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”6

Joseph Smith’s apostolic testimony of the divine reality and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as well as his knowledge of the redemptive and saving power of the Savior, can best be seen by the Prophet’s own beautiful, powerful, and succinct witness:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).

How grateful I am for the apostolic call of Joseph Smith.

 

 

 

Notes

1. See Book of Mormon Reference Companion, ed. Dennis L. Largey (2003), 457–58.

2. See Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith, ed. Preston Nibley (1958), 128–29.

3. History of Joseph Smith, 128, 129.

4. The 116 pages were lost in June 1828. In July Joseph Smith received what is now section 3 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In September the plates were returned to the Prophet. See the historical introductions to D&C 3; 10.

5. History of the Church, 4:461.

6. History of the Church, 3:30.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MHGinTN]

You're still in the dark, son, trying to twist the Bible to refute itself. Your father must be proud. Can you feel his pride burning in your bosom?

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[Syncro]

Many of us would like to know how Mormons feel about the official writings of the LDS belief system in the areas sited in that post.

It would clear up many of the misunderstandings.

Thank you.

***

In all due respect how would it clear up any misunderstandings sinse your mind seems to be already made up!

My mind is not made up as to weather you believe the writings in question. I would like to know from your knowledge of the LDS belief if you agree with the statements from your prophets and leaders.

Yes, my mind is make up in one area.

I believe the writings are accurate and accurately describe the beliefs of the LDS church.

I would like to know what you think, as you are an adherent of Mormonism.

I hope we can continue this dialog, thanks for responding!

[DelphiUser]

HOW do you know? Did you shake his hand?

No.

God has told many more that Mormonism is false. Either they are decieved or you are.

Did they receive a witness of Jesus Christ come in the flesh as part of the message? If not, then the Bible says they were deceived and I was not.

Those who believe Mormonism is false also have evidence on their side.

Yep, and the Sanhedrin had evidence on their side too... How'd that work out for them in the end do you think?

And you are right “Testifying of Jesus Christ coming in the flesh as Lord and Savior is one of them.” but the LDS don’t testify of the BIBLICAL CHRIST, they testify of a FALSE CHRIST and that is something Satan can do.

I was praying about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, my witness was very specific, Both are of God. It was not a false Christ that was being testified about, but the Jesus of the Bible.

The idea that we read the Bible and then preach a false Christ may fly in some bible study group that's been meeting too late into the night, but it's such a ridiculous thing to actually argue. Next you'll be telling me that You're rubber and I'm glue...

I know who answered your prayer as well, and it wasn’t God at all. Why? Because God will not testify of blasphemy and Mormon doctrine is unbiblical blasphemy.

OK, back to reality. The Bible gives you a way to know. I followed that way, got the right answer and you say it can't be true because it's blasphemy? Do you remember what the Sanhedrin condemned Jesus for? (hint blasphemy.)

Think about that for a second...

What God says is true, and in a Biblically approved, tested, verified way. cannot be blasphemy, because God decides what is blasphemy, not you.

please, do not become one of the ones on this forum who sets himself up as God to judge the hearts, and minds of others.

Please, pray about this to God, ask for understanding. Please get a spiritual confirmation, not just a logical one, I beg you, not for my sake, but for yours.

I have prayed for you many times today, may God have mercy on your soul and grant you a spiritual confirmation that he exists, not just a logical one! Amen.

Delph

[DelphiUser]

All questions that you don't want to answer can be called nonsense.

Well IMHO, you are the largest purveyor of nonsense on the thread L.C.

I hope that makes you happy.

Delph

[DelphiUser]

Look at my posts to and From reaganaut, all those questions have been covered.

[DelphiUser]

This is a commonly misinterpreted passage of scripture.

That is why I take it precisely as written. If I don't interpret it, I can't mis interpret it.

As for Moroni, and Joseph Smith, well you have proven you don't know much about them by what you wrote.

Delph

[Syncro]

they are blaming the LDS for all those endless daily barge of LDS threads.

The poster of this thread posted an average of OVEr ONE per day for that last month.

Do you think Free Republic is a Religion Forum or a place to defend the constitution?

restornu, it is " America's exclusive site for God, Family, Country, Life & Liberty constitutional conservative activists!"p>The Religion forum is a small part of it.

I post much more on the news forum than I do in the Religion Forum.

How about you?

Many, many over the years have been zotted from all faiths who original purpose was a Free Republic.

Yes, disputers are a diverse lot.

Free Republic is still plugging along with it's original purpose.

Really restornu, how often do you post in the News Forum, or is FR mostly a Religion Forum for your purposes?

Funny you should ask ME that question!

[DelphiUser]

I AM is definitely one of God's names. He has many.

Go with God Alamo Girl, may God make your paths smooth and your pathway bright.

Delph

[caww]

You stated you ‘become a God’...and according to this post now,... that apparently “you’re relying on Jesus for salvation and for this he will make you a God.”

” Many....will say to me on that day..”Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?.....”THEN” I will tell them plainly,.... “I never knew you........away from me you evildoers.”.........Matt 7:22

I would suspect if you keep up with your belief, (he is going to make you a God), you could very well find yourself “trying to to break down the doors of heaven to get in” as you mentioned.

[cruise_missile]

The doctrine according to Mormon theology is that Jesus was not God Himself but an older brother to all of us. But according to the BOM it specifically states that it was God himself that came down as Jesus. So naturally when a Christian reads the BOM he finds not too much difference. It is only when you get into their deeper theology that you find bad doctrine. Doctrine that contradicts itself on the most fundamental levels. Such as who is God. Book of Mormon (Condradicts that Jesus was the OLDER brother)

Mosiah 13:34: “Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?”

Mosiah 15:1-5: “And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation...”

Mosiah 16:15: “Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father.”

Alma 11:26-33: And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me. And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God? And he said unto him, Yea.”

Alma 11:38-40: Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.”

In Mosiah it says, “God himself” shall come down among the children of men. “God himself”. What better words to explain who Jesus is! In Mosiah it also says Jesus is “…Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father”. This isn’t written in another language or in need of further interpretation, but comes from the Book of Mormon – a book proclaimed to be “the most correct book on the face of the earth”! The Book of Mormon – and the Bible – teach there is only one Eternal Father and He is our Father in heaven who is over all, not just ‘over this earth’, but over all that exists and all that will ever exist. Why don’t you believe these verses from the Book of Mormon? If the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on the earth, why doesn’t it say, “Jesus, who is our eternal brother”?

How can the Book of Mormon be the most correct book on the earth when the LDS Church doesn’t accept and teach the above passages? Growing up, I was always taught that the Book of Mormon is “the most correct book on the face of the earth”. I don’t know who originally said that, as far as church history, but I’ve heard this quote or phrase many times. To find out that the Book of Mormon agrees with the Bible on who God is, was like a lightning bolt from the sky. Can you tell me why the LDS Church doesn’t teach this – especially since it is in the Book of Mormon? It doesn’t make sense that your church does not accept it’s own scriptures.

What does himeslf mean in Mormonism. Some one else? Don't believe your lying eyes.

[MHGinTN]

Someone is lying, son. Either you were lied to by this 'spirit' or you're not being straight. Which version of the BofM did you pray over, the pre 1837 or the post 1837 version? And what do you make of the false claims in the BofM which are numerous and well documented ... do you think God would confirm for you something that is not true, that contradicts the Bible, and that has zero physical evidence to confirm it?

Just to help you think about your answer, here is a little charting of just a couple of the significant changes from 1830 to the 1837 version of Nephi:

1Nephi changes:

Prior to 1837

After 1837 changes …

11:18 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of flesh.

And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?

And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?

11:32 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying, look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.

And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.

13:40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which is of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Saviour of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved;

And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

[Syncro]

It's a hypothetical question that is argumentative.

Now they might post a thread titled “The Pope is the Vicar of Christ.” Much more likely than what your postulated.

I give a lot more leeway to Catholicism than Mormonism, as Catholicism is based on the Historical Biblical Jesus while the Mormon belief system has a Jesus that does not fit Biblical criteria.

[restornu]

So far you have not given me a specific item from the offical Church Doctrine which is contain in the standard works.

Bible Book of Mormon Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants

Anything else is Sermons, Ponderings and speculations.

[Syncro]

Thank you for documenting those changes here for all to see.

[MHGinTN]

With years now of researching Mormonism, I have desktop files of quotes, etc. directly from LDS sources. Glad to share them if it can help someone escape the demonic religion that pretends to be restored christianity, with a god who they claim was once a man, and who sired their jesus through union with a goddess, and which god was appointed god over earth by a council of gods and then picked up two other gods to get things done as one in purpose. The story from Smith was so close to the ancient Greek and Roman polytheism that it always surprises me when delph or resty spittles that the trinity conceptualization of The One God is a farce to Mormons.

[Kevmo]

That statement made ZERO sense.
***Then I gather a lot of things don’t make sense to you that do make sense to many others.

[SZonian]

You appear to have not frequented many mormon threads before, so I’ll give you some latitude in regards to your call for “civil discourse”.

Use of the word heretic pales in comparison to some of the, shall we say, more colorful terms directed towards those who question mormonISM, regardless of tone or manner. Any who question[ed] the doctrine are branded as “anti’s” and are henceforth denied any “civility” from some of the mormons or their defenders.

Let’s just say that updating the list of terms got tiresome.

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.”
Winston Churchill

[MHGinTN]

Clique is playing at agitprop. Reading the article which started this thread reveals that the Mormons believe Joey Smith was an actual Apostle of Jesus Christ in the same way the real Apostles were proven, because they had been with Him from the beginning and had seen the risen Lord. Yes, ol' Joe didn't say that Jesus and God appeared to him in the supposed 'first vision' but Mormon mythology has transmogrified the first vision (depending upon which of the versions one reads) into God and Jesus appeared to Joey at his tender age.

In actuality, if Joe had this forest vision, the two or one inthe vision did not confirm whom they/it were/was by confessing that Jesus had come int he flesh.

[restornu]

they were label Caucus and why are you contending over this are you the owner?

but any thread that is LDS can be confusing to those who don’t follow closely the RF threads.

back to that mind set again those who are LDS see things differently in title than others as it is with those freepers who are RF followers many know the differents meaning of RF threads.

Many of the N/AF followers are not clue in to the RF rules.

Do you like a continuing turmoil happy campers are paying campers!

[Syncro]

So far you have not given me a specific item from the offical Church Doctrine which is contain in the standard works.

Bible Book of Mormon Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants

Thank you so much, restornu!

Here's a start:

"All of us lived in this heavenly spiritual realm before we were born with physical bodies on the earth. Christ was begotten of the Father, as were all of us, including Lucifer, who was a Son of the Morning. The title “Son of the Morning” could either signify that Lucifer was one of the earliest born of the spirits, or was illustrious, or both. The name Lucifer means “lightbearer” or “shining one.” Since both Christ and Lucifer were born of the Father, they are brothers in a spiritual sense, as all of us are brothers and sisters in that sense. (LDS teaching regarding Joseph Smith‘s, Pearl of Great Price: Book of Moses 4:1-4)

So Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, both born of the Father?

And here is another. Does it count, it is from the Prophet Joseph Smith:

"Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)

Jesus' Father (God) laid down His life, same as Jesus?

Is that considered Sermons, Ponderings or speculations or can it be considered "gospel" from the LDS?

It's my understanding that the title Prophet means one that speaks God's truth.

Wouldn't Smith's pronouncements be considered offical Church Doctrine?

Here is the final one, restornu.

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)

Does not that speak of many Gods, restornu?

Thank you for your patience, I await your answers!