Posted on 12/26/2010 5:29:46 PM PST by Colofornian
Is Mormonism Christian? This may seem like a puzzling question to many Mormons as well as to some Christians. Mormons will note that they include the Bible among the four books which they recognize as Scripture, and that belief in Jesus Christ is central to their faith, as evidenced by their official name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Furthermore, many Christians have heard the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing Christian hymns and are favorably impressed with the Mormon commitment to high moral standards and strong families. Doesn’t it follow that Mormonism is Christian?
"To fairly and accurately resolve this question we need to carefully compare the basic doctrines of the Mormon religion with the basic doctrines of historic, biblical Christianity."
To fairly and accurately resolve this question we need to carefully compare the basic doctrines of the Mormon religion with the basic doctrines of historic, biblical Christianity. To represent the Mormon position we have relied on the following well-known Mormon doctrinal books, the first three of which are published by the Mormon Church: Gospel Principles (1997), Achieving a Celestial Marriage (1976), and A Study of the Articles of Faith (1979) by Mormon Apostle James E. Talmage, as well as Doctrines of Salvation (3 vols.) by the tenth Mormon President and prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Mormon Doctrine (2nd ed., 1979) by Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
1. Is There More Than One True God?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that there is only one True and Living God and apart from Him there are no other Gods (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10,11; 44:6,8; 45:21,22; 46:9; Mark 12:29-34).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that there are many Gods (Book of Abraham 4:3ff), and that we can become gods and goddesses in the celestial kingdom (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20; Gospel Principles, p. 245; Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 130). It also teaches that those who achieve godhood will have spirit children who will worship and pray to them, just as we worship and pray to God the Father (Gospel Principles, p. 302).
2. Was God Once a Man Like Us?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that God is Spirit (John 4:24; 1 Timothy 6:15,16), He is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Hosea 11:9; Romans 1:22, 23), and has always (eternally) existed as God — all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present (Psalm 90:2; 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:28; Luke 1:37).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that God the Father was once a man like us who progressed to become a God and has a body of flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347; Gospel Principles, p. 9; Articles of Faith, p. 430; Mormon Doctrine, p. 321). Indeed, the Mormon Church teaches that God himself has a father, and a grandfather, ad infinitum (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373; Mormon Doctrine, p. 577).
3. Are Jesus and Satan Spirit Brothers?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Jesus is the unique Son of God; he has always existed as God, and is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father (John 1:1, 14; 10:30; 14:9; Colossians 2:9). While never less than God, at the appointed time He laid aside the glory He shared with the Father (John 17:4, 5; Philippians 2:6-11) and was made flesh for our salvation; His incarnation was accomplished through being conceived supernaturally by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin (Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:34-35).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Jesus Christ is our elder brother who progressed to godhood, having first been procreated as a spirit child by Heavenly Father and a heavenly mother; He was later conceived physically through intercourse between Heavenly Father and the virgin Mary (D&C 93:21; Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51; Gospel Principles, p. 11-13; Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 129; Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547; 742; Ezra Taft Benson, Come unto Christ, p. 4; Robert L. Millet, The Mormon Faith: Understanding Restored Christianity, p. 31). Mormon doctrine affirms that Jesus, all angels, Lucifer, all demons, and all human beings are originally spirit brothers and sisters (Abraham 3:22-27; Moses 4:1-2; Gospel Principles, pp. 17-18; Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
4. Is God a Trinity?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost are not separate Gods or separate beings, but are distinct Persons within the one Triune Godhead. Throughout the New Testament the Son and the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father are separately identified as and act as God (Son: Mark 2:5-12; John 20:28; Philippians 2:10,11; Holy Spirit: Acts 5:3,4; 2 Corinthians 3:17,18; 13:14); yet at the same time the Bible teaches that these three are only one God (see point 1).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577), and that the Son and Holy Ghost are the literal offspring of Heavenly Father and a celestial wife (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, p. 649).
5. Was The Sin Of Adam and Eve a Great Evil Or a Great Blessing?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the disobedience of our first parents Adam and Eve was a great evil. Through their fall sin entered the world, bringing all human beings under condemnation and death. Thus we are born with a sinful nature, and will be judged for the sins we commit as individuals. (Ezekiel 18:1-20; Romans 5:12-21).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Adam’s sin was "a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us" (Gospel Principles, p. 33; Book of Mormon — 2 Nephi 2:25; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 114-115).
6. Can We Make Ourselves Worthy Before God?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that apart from the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross we are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1,5) and are powerless to save ourselves. By grace alone, apart from self-righteous works, God forgives our sins and makes us worthy to live in His presence (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-6). Our part is only to cling to Christ in heartfelt faith. (However, it is certainly true that without the evidence of changed conduct, a person’s testimony of faith in Christ must be questioned; salvation by grace alone through faith, does not mean we can live as we please — Romans 6:1-4).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that eternal life in the presence of God (which it terms "exaltation in the celestial kingdom") must be earned through obedience to all the commands of the Mormon Church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals. Works are a requirement for salvation (entrance into the "celestial kingdom") — Gospel Principles, p. 303-304; Pearl of Great Price — Third Article of Faith; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 339, 671; Book of Mormon — 2 Nephi 25:23).
7. Does Christ's Atoning Death Benefit Those Who Reject Him?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the purpose of the atoning work of Christ on the cross was to provide the complete solution for humankind’s sin problem. However, those who reject God’s grace in this life will have no part in this salvation but are under the judgment of God for eternity (John 3:36; Hebrews 9:27; 1 John 5:11-12).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the purpose of the atonement was to bring resurrection and immortality to all people, regardless of whether they receive Christ by faith. Christ’s atonement is only a partial basis for worthiness and eternal life, which also requires obedience to all the commands of the Mormon church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals (Gospel Principles, pp. 74-75; Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).
8. Is The Bible The Unique and Final Word of God?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the Bible is the unique, final and infallible Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 1:1,2; 2 Peter 1:21) and that it will stand forever (1 Peter 1:23-25). God’s providential preservation of the text of the Bible was marvelously illustrated in the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the Bible has been corrupted, is missing many "plain and precious parts" and does not contain the fullness of the Gospel (Book of Mormon — 1 Nephi 13:26-29; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 190-191).
9. Did The Early Church Fall Into Total Apostasy?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the true Church was divinely established by Jesus and could never and will never disappear from the earth (Matthew 16:18; John 15:16; 17:11). Christians acknowledge that there have been times of corruption and apostasy within the Church, but believe there has always been a remnant that held fast to the biblical essentials.
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that there was a great and total apostasy of the Church as established by Jesus Christ; this state of apostasy "still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" of the Mormon Church (Gospel Principles, pp. 105-106; Mormon Doctrine, p. 44).
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Conclusion: The above points in italics constitute the common gospel believed by all orthodox Christians through the ages regardless of denominational labels. On the other hand, some new religions such as Mormonism claim to be Christian, but accept as Scripture writings outside of the Bible, teach doctrines that contradict the Bible, and hold to beliefs completely foreign to the teachings of Jesus and His apostles.
Mormons share with orthodox Christians some important moral precepts from the Bible. However, the above points are examples of the many fundamental and irreconcilable differences between historic, biblical Christianity and Mormonism. While these differences do not keep us from being friendly with Mormons, we cannot consider them brothers and sisters in Christ. The Bible specifically warns of false prophets who will teach "another gospel" centered around "another Jesus," and witnessed to by "another spirit" (2 Corinthians 11:4,13-15; Galatians 1:6-9). Based on the evidence presented above, we believe Mormonism represents just such a counterfeit gospel.
It has been pointed out that if one claimed to be a Mormon but denied all the basic tenets of Mormonism — that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is true and divinely inspired, that god was once a man who progressed to godhood through keeping the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Church, and that the Mormon Church was divinely established — the Mormon Church would reject such a person’s claim to being a Latter-day Saint. One cannot fairly call oneself a Mormon if one does not believe the fundamental doctrines taught by the Mormon Church. By the same token, if the Mormon Church does not hold to even the basic biblical truths believed by the greater Christian community down through the ages, how can Christians reasonably be expected to accept Mormonism as authentic Christianity?
If the Mormon Church believes it is the only true Christian Church, it should not attempt to publicly present itself as a part of a broader Christian community. Instead it should tell the world openly that those who claim to be orthodox Christians are not really Christians at all, and that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. This in fact is what it teaches privately, but not publicly.
Statements of 5 Christian Denominations on Mormonism
Christian churches teach belief in God as an eternal, self-existent, immortal being, unfettered by corporeal limitations and unchanging in both character and nature. In recent years, several Christian denominations have made studies of Mormon teaching and come to the conclusion that there are irreconcilable differences between LDS doctrine and Christian beliefs based on the Bible.
• Statement of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod
• Statement of the Presbyterian Church (USA)
• Statement of the Roman Catholic Church
• Statement of the Southern Baptist Convention
• Statement of the United Methodist Church
..
I'm still reading the Announcement of the Universal Apostasy , but this is where you lose me.
Can you show me:
1. What constitutes the "true" church and
2. Proof that it remained intact throughout history?
The true church is Christianity - people, not a building.
Proof that it remained intact throughout history?
LOL, prove that it DIDN'T remain intact 10. Christianity has Jesus' promise that it would remain intact throughout history and that though some would LEAVE it, it would remain intact.
This is what amazes me.
We’re contending one thing, [mormons claim complete apostasy]. 10 is defending one thing [that’s not what they meant, not one whit of truth left?].
When we offer proof of the mormon claims, 10 turns around and says, “oh really, prove the opposite”.
Really? Christ is a liar?
I tire of these word and spin games.
Too vague. By this definition anything is Christianity. While it certainly isn't a building, it isn't people either.
People are Christians. They practice Christianity, but Christianity is a belief system and a way of life. To make Christianity "true" it must be headed by Jesus Christ himself or else it cannot bear his name and be true.
Christianity has Jesus' promise that it would remain intact throughout history and that though some would LEAVE it, it would remain intact.
Overreach on this one. He didn't promise it would remain intact throughout history. That's eisegsis.
The Christian expectation is apostasy at some point and restoration. That's the story of the Bible.
In Noah's day you had universal apostasy. Josaiah as experienced universal apostasy among his people. Jesus encountered it as well. By dictionary definition apostasy is An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion or departure from one's faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian's apostasy from Christianity.
These definitions are important when trying to search out the truth. The LDS definition of apostasy is slightly different. The LDS definition of Apostasy is:
Latter-day Saints believe that apostasy occurs whenever an individual or community rejects the revelations and ordinances of God, changes the gospel of Jesus Christ, or rebels against the commandments of God, thereby losing the blessings of the Holy Ghost and of divine authority.
So you have four conditions that satisfy apostasy for the LDS:
1. Rejection of revelations of God
2. Rejection of the ordinances of God
3. Changes to the gospel of Jesus Christ
4. Rebellion against the commandments of God
#4 most certainly is always happening, but is it complete? Few Christians observe the Sabbath Day who would otherwise strictly adhere to the other Ten Commandments. The Trinity is another example of changes to the gospel of Jesus Christ
Let me continue my research and reading. I haven't finished reading History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: History of Joseph Smith the Prophet By Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts.
I hadn't known this book was available until Szonian and you put me on to it and I was thrilled to find it online. I like going to the source and not just getting the opinions of men. Interpretations get filtered and all that.
I'm not going to read the whole thing for now, but just the chapter starting on page XL called Announcement of the Universal Apostasy
When I'm done I'll post what I've found or have you read it already?
Jesus promised that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”? (Matt. 16:18) Jesus also promised, “lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” (Matt. 28:20) There couldn’t have been unless Jesus lied.
Jesus cannot lie or else he wouldn't be God. So we agree on that.
Matt. 16:18 is best translated that “the gates of [Hades] shall not prevail against it.” Hades being the holding place for dead spirits. This is in keeping with the OT Sheol and with LDS doctrine as regards the dead, no?
It actually makes the most sense when you think about the LDS doctrine of work for the dead. In this context it's obvious that Jesus meant his Atonement was infinite and could not be limited even by death.
For Matthew 28:20 context matters. A common tactic of eisegesis is to snip a verse, taking it out of context and then buttressing your doctrine by it, but that's just putting too much sand in the mix and castles built of sand...
The verse only makes sense as a complete thought and Jesus' thought is (Matt. 28:19-20):
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."(I used the NIV as it is pretty close to the actual Greek)
The "make disciples" is mathéteuó and means "helping someone to progressively learn the Word of God to become a matured, growing disciple (literally, "a learner," a true Christ-follower); to train (develop) in the truths of Scripture and the lifestyle required, i.e. helping a believer learn to be a disciple of Christ in belief and practice.
Baptizing is baptizó meaning properly, "submerge" (Souter); hence, baptize, to immerse (literally, "dip under"). 907 (baptízō) implies submersion ("immersion"), in contrast to 472 /antéxomai ("sprinkle").
"Teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" is very interesting and you'd profit by grabbing your Strong's and reading the Greek with the definitions. I like going here Matthew 28:20. I hate relying on anyone else's interpretation as you're likely to be mislead. There's so much eisegesis out there it isn't funny.
So only under the preceding circumstances does Christ promise, "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age," function.
Once you lose authority to preach, baptize and teach "all that I [Jesus Christ] have commanded you" you most certainly have apostasy and it sounds complete.
Total apostasy can still exist under these circumstances, no? Imagine we'd taken apart a motorcycle down to its constituent parts. Some would have a tire, a spark plug, gas tank, etc. It wouldn't be a motorcycle even though all the parts are there.
You'd still have complete apostasy even with these four still alive, no? The only exception would be if they were still discipling, baptizing and teaching the commandments of God.
Do the LDS believe they were doing that at the time of Joseph Smith's vision?
That fits if you believe, as the LDS do, that you need authority, baptism (immersion), ordinances, work for the dead, functioning temples, etc.
It seems that you're just arguing beliefs as facts. That you believe differently is known. That the LDS are wrong isn't.
I’m simply seeking to understand what you meant. If complete apostasy means not one whit of truth left, then there isn’t a complete apostasy.
If instead it simply means that there is no functioning authority discipling, baptizing and teaching ordinances then there was a complete apostasy.
Ordinance being defined as:
1. A rule established by authority; a permanent rule of action. An ordinance may be a law or statute of sovereign power. In this sense it is often used in the Scriptures. Ex. 15. Num. 10. Ezra 3. It may also signify a decree, edict or rescript, and the word has sometimes been applied to the statutes of Parliament, but these are usually called acts or laws. In the United States, it is never applied to the acts of Congress, or of a state legislature.
2. Observance commanded.
3. Appointment.
4. Established rite or ceremony. Heb. 9. In this sense, baptism and the Lord’’s supper are denominated ordinances.
This is in keeping with Matt. 28:19-20.
Wrong again - church is the 'ekklesia' - the called out ones, the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth and the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven. Perhaps your are not well read enough.
People are Christians. They practice Christianity, but Christianity is a belief system and a way of life.
Nope, "people" are not necessarily "christian" for practicing a "belief system" any more than sleeping in a garage makes you a car 10. To be a follower of Christ is not a 'belief system'. Belief systems are products of men.
To make Christianity "true" it must be headed by Jesus Christ himself or else it cannot bear his name and be true.
Nope again - to be true the Person, nature and works of Christ (ie the definition of WHO Jesus is) must be true. Under your definition there would be no separation between JW, Unitarians, Moonies, etc. Additionally, LOTS of organizations 'bear' the name of Jesus - doesn't make them true either.
Overreach on this one. He didn't promise it would remain intact throughout history. That's eisegsis.
Just another ignorant statement - THAT is EISEGESIS 10 and an epic fail on your part. There is absolutely NOTHING in Jesus' promise to Peter that would indicate otherwise - except morg theology - thus eisegesis on your part.
In Noah's day you had universal apostasy.
Not ABSOLUTE universal though because Noah and his family were found righteous before Lord.
Josaiah as experienced universal apostasy among his people.
Josaiah is not found in the OT - If you are referring to Josiah, his reign is noteworthy for the great revivals back to the worship of Jehovah which he led.
Jesus encountered it as well.
Biblical reference please - I don't accept the bom references.
An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion or departure from one's faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian's apostasy from Christianity.
Webster's dictionary is a poor source for theology 10. However, if we apply the same the key is the word TOTAL comprising the whole number or amount , which leaves NO room for any to slip by.
The LDS definition of Apostasy
Please note that the contents of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, a joint product of Brigham Young University and Macmillan Publishing Company, do not necessarily represent the official position of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
#4 most certainly is always happening, but is it complete? Few Christians observe the Sabbath Day who would otherwise strictly adhere to the other Ten Commandments.
mormon do not observe the sabbath either as defined within the Bible.
The Trinity is another example of changes to the gospel of Jesus Christ
Mormon polytheism is another example of changes to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Interesting to see you swirling in the backwater of lds claims of TOTAL apostasy, not complete 10, please keep focused. I've defined TOTAL in prior post. Remember, smith also said -
AII their creeds and professors (professors of their faith evangelists/preachers) were also wrong.
Not some, not most, not many but ALL - right in line with TOTAL. Please try to stay focused 10 and not parse words or even switch them in mid stream.
Ah, here is your 'complete' problem. Context, context, context 10. if it is 'complete', then the apostasy was TOTAL, according to smith et al. If there was NO (not some, not a few, not many but NO) true church was in existence and ALL the things that made for a "true" church were COMPLETELY removed/corrupted, then it was TOTAL. Come on 10 leave the nicy-nice PR spin to the more experienced at lds hq.
That's a better definition than your original statement, but it still isn't Biblical. It's too loosey-goosey. The churches of the NT are orderly and geographical with the persons at a specific locale and professing faith in Jesus Christ falling under an ordained hierarchy of leadership.
Here's the word "church" in Greek:ekklésia Definition: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.
The addition of "HELPS Word-studies" by Helps Ministries, Inc. works to obfuscate the word further by its attempt to universalize the definition. It doesn't make sense if the Church is "the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom" without further definition of what makes up a believer, that is what is the right belief and for that the Bible is clear. It isn't simply any professed believer in Jesus Christ, there's order in God's true Church.
The definition you posted, while theologically convenient is eisegesis. Particularly your reference to the "assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven" which is absurd in light of Biblical truth.
I'd like to discuss your other assertions in this post further, but I don't have time until later in the week. Take care.
The addition of "HELPS Word-studies" by Helps Ministries, Inc. works to obfuscate the word further by its attempt to universalize the definition.
LOL, can't refute a source - attempt to poison the well. Epic fail 10. From your own found definition - ". . . the whole body of Christian believers". That is a universal statement, not (snicker) 'eisegesis'. It isn't simply any professed believer in Jesus Christ, there's order in God's true Church.
See, had you HONESTLY posted the strongs definition, under definitions 1d 4) and 5) is what I included in my citation. So since you presented a cherry-picked definition extract you failed. Even with your extract, it still supports my statement.
Regarding order - are you telling me that Paul appointed 12 year old boys to supervise your definition of a 'church'?
"The Christian expectation is apostasy at some point and restoration. That's the story of the Bible.
In Noah's day you had universal apostasy. Josiah experienced universal apostasy among his people. Jesus encountered it as well. By dictionary definition apostasy is An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion or departure from one's faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian's apostasy from Christianity.
These definitions are important when trying to search out the truth. The LDS definition of apostasy is slightly different. The LDS definition of Apostasy is:
Latter-day Saints believe that apostasy occurs whenever an individual or community rejects the revelations and ordinances of God, changes the gospel of Jesus Christ, or rebels against the commandments of God, thereby losing the blessings of the Holy Ghost and of divine authority.
So you have four conditions that satisfy apostasy for the LDS:
1. Rejection of revelations of God
2. Rejection of the ordinances of God
3. Changes to the gospel of Jesus Christ
4. Rebellion against the commandments of God
#4 most certainly is always happening, but is it complete? Few Christians observe the Sabbath Day who would otherwise strictly adhere to the other Ten Commandments. The Trinity is another example of changes to the gospel of Jesus Christ
Let me continue my research and reading. I haven't finished reading History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: History of Joseph Smith the Prophet By Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts.
I hadn't known this book was available until Szonian and you put me on to it and I was thrilled to find it online. I like going to the source and not just getting the opinions of men. Interpretations get filtered and all that.
I'm not going to read the whole thing for now, but just the chapter starting on page XL called Announcement of the Universal Apostasy "
On further research #1, #2 and #3 have also occurred.
The closing of scriptures is a refutation of further revelation from God. The Christian expectation should be the opposite. There isn't any Biblical passage that indicates revelation or scripture is closed.God is sovereign, not the Bible.
#2 is true. There are no ordinances without authority and most ordinances have been abandoned by "Christians".
#3 is a function of 1 & 2.
That's what B.H. Roberts spells out here:
Nope - that is NOT the Christian expectation 10 - it may be yours, but you fail epically.
In Noah's day you had universal apostasy.
Except for Noah and his family - hence NOT universal. Yawn, your repetition if boring 10.
Josiah
Time wasn't UNIVERSAL apostasy either as there were still many who believed. Tsk, tsk, stupidity is doing the same thing over and over, as you are here, and expecting the same results. Read your bible
Yes, definitions are important - however the presence of INDIVIDUAL apostasy does not equal the complete, total and universal apostasy your mormon prophets claimed were in existence prior to smith's scam operation 10.
On further research #1, #2 and #3 have also occurred. The closing of scriptures is a refutation of further revelation from God.
LOL, sorry 10, repeating what your echo chamber sez doesn't prove a total, complete and universal apostasy existed in Christianity.
But your last commentary is worth refuting in detail. What 'PROOF' do we have that this 'further revelation from God' (which ever one that may be in mormondom) is a TRUE revelation from God. Your whole testimony hinges on a subjective FEELING that smith was a prophet. Facts are a pesky thing to such a dogmatically adhered to 'faith'. Every aspect of smith's life shouts that he was a false prophet. That is the judgement OF scripture 10. Every facet of the bom story has been shown to be false - it comes up empty every time and not a single proven artifact or discovery in the americas to support it. How about all the different first vision stories 10 - smith contradicts himself multiple times over.
Fact is, just like there never was a complete, total and universal apostasy of Christianity - this supposed 'continuing' revelation is shown to be fraudulent as well.
The Christian expectation should be the opposite. There isn't any Biblical passage that indicates revelation or scripture is closed.God is sovereign, not the Bible.
No, history shows otherwise - many heretical sects came up because they had their own 'revelations'. But then you are filtering your understanding through the peepstone of mormonism. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would bring to REMEMBRANCE that which he HAD (past tense) taught them. The Bereans didn't look to the teachings of Paul to verify his message - they went to the existing scriptures - the OT. There is nothing that the bom can add to the message of the Bible. But the message of MORMONISM is repudiated by the Bible at every turn.
There are no ordinances without authority and most ordinances have been abandoned by "Christians".
LOL, except where those 'ordinances' never existed in Christianity to begin with.
Roberts is wrong as are you. The gates of hell didn't prevail against the Church and Christ was true to His promise to never leave or forsake His church at any stage of its existence. Your regurgitation of Roberts fails when it strikes that pesky fact of history.
Smith was a false prophet, the bom is a false witness and mormonism is a false religion, facts that I can testify to according to the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ preserved for us in the Bible.
I don't understand your point, but I can only think of Acts 5:19-20, actually the whole chapter is temple focused.
I did honestly post the entire Strong's definition of Here's the word "church" in Greek: ekklésia previously as well as the reference as a link. Definition: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.
The trouble with the view you're espousing that of the final definition and the first is that the "whole body of Christian believers" and "an assembly" are too open ended. Church is found in the New Testament as a specific, authorized, ordered entity, geographically limited and only under those circumstances does the "whole body of Christian believers" constitute the Church and "an assembly" the grouping of those Christians in their geographic place. We cannot impose the 20th century on the 1st.
Let's look at some examples:
In Matthew 18 Jesus covers several topics, but one that is overlooked is the "church" as described by Christ himself. Matthew 18:17 Jesus: "If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. Then if he or she won't accept the church's decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector."
Now that's Jesus talking and the Church he is describing is one of order. Can you imagine just going to any church to resolve this problem? Even if the church agreed with your beliefs would you argue that any randomly chosen church would settle this issue?
The Church of Jesus Christ is a church of order, it is an assembly of order and only in order can it ever be called the "the whole body of Christian believers."
Regarding order - are you telling me that Paul appointed 12 year old boys to supervise your definition of a 'church'?
Now this is not my definition of church, but God's. I don't know if Paul appointed 12 year old boys to administer in the church and neither do you as the Bible is silent on that matter. But the Christian expectation is a church with Christ ordained offices. See: Ephesians 4:11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.
The Greek is fascinating, particularly "the great rebellion" which is apostasia: a defection from truth.
This must be among only those who profess to be Christians otherwise it doesn't make sense as the world has revolted against God from the beginning. Jesus came to correct the Jews, the Hebrew remnant, yet the "falling away" or apostasy was to come later and be among the Christians.
Here's Websters (1913/1828): An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion of departure from one's faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian's apostasy from Christianity. But, you likely know this already.
So if the Bible and its teachings are ignored, the fervent Christians deny the need for ordinations and authority or lose said authority to act what would you call that? Who can baptize and if no one why baptize, it's just symbolic anyway, right?
"No need for order or authority the Church is just all of us anyway." Nonsense, absolute nonsense.
It flies in the face of all our Lord and Master taught: 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
PS it isn't the gates of "hell" that won't prevail that won't prevail against the Church, but Hades - the holding place of the dead. Please do the research, be open minded and avoid eisegesis. The Bible doesn't say what you want to believe it does.
For instance Josiah became king at age 8 and ruled in righteousness and restored the temple ordinances which had been utterly lost.
Fail again 10, you were emphasizing a physical structure associated with location. Acts 14 comes later than Acts 5 10. Were the Gentiles Paul were ministering to attending temple in Jerusalem - NO, they were forbidden. The temple was nothing like mormon temples.
I did honestly post the entire Strong's definition of Here's the word "church" in Greek: ekklésia previously as well as the reference as a link. Definition: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.
Sorry, fail again, Biblos provides an incomplete definition. This site provides the more accurate and detailed definition:
http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1577
The trouble with the view you're espousing that of the final definition and the first is that the "whole body of Christian believers" and "an assembly" are too open ended.
Fail again 10 - do you bother to read in context? The usage of the word in context provides the definition. Are you claiming that Christian believers are not part of the church? Remember - at no point in the NT did they have a physical location/building called a 'church' - that is a late invention (see your baffled statement at first)
Church is found in the New Testament as a specific, authorized, ordered entity, geographically limited .. . .
Still haven't studied the bible very much huh? Unfortunately - even your abbreviated definition of ekklesia repudiates this view. It was only geographically limited because it was growing and young. It had no temples, it had no priesthood, it had no 'ordiances' aka morg doctrines.
only under those circumstances does the "whole body of Christian believers" constitute the Church and "an assembly" the grouping of those Christians in their geographic place. We cannot impose the 20th century on the 1st.
LOL, I'm not the one superimposing the bogus views of a peep stone user on the 1st century. That is why ekklesia in its context is true. Read Paul - his references to church proves that its use is not limited geographically or chronologically - Ro 16:23, 1Co 6:4, 1Co 10:32, 1Co 11:22, 1Co 12:28- just for starters. Paul uses it to address ALL Christian across ALL the ages, and not just the Believers - the "called out" ones (practical application of ekklesia from the bible).
BTW 10, just which specific geographically limited 'church' was Jesus establishing in MT 16:18?
In Matthew 18 Jesus covers several topics, but one that is overlooked is the "church" as described by Christ himself.
And what does Jesus "describe" 10? Definitely nothing remotely resembling mormonism. Jesus said to lay the whole matter before the congregation of Christian believers - no ecclestical structure at all.
Can you imagine just going to any church to resolve this problem? Even if the church agreed with your beliefs would you argue that any randomly chosen church would settle this issue?
Jesus' context was also clear - it was the local assembly - no broader church hierarchy 10.
The Church of Jesus Christ is a church of order, it is an assembly of order and only in order can it ever be called the "the whole body of Christian believers."
Yes, a 'church' of legalism, but ekklesia says NOTHING requiring order now does it. In fact the structure of the early believers was very fluid.
Now this is not my definition of church, but God's. I don't know if Paul appointed 12 year old boys to administer in the church and neither do you as the Bible is silent on that matter.
LOL - the argument from silence. In that passage Paul appointed elders - elders in mormonism are appointed at 12 years old. Paul later describes these elders as being married with children. Another epic fail on your part 10
See: Ephesians 4:11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.
And mormonism continues to get it wrong doesn't it. It places apostles over prophets (what NO Presidents), and why no women prophets (Lu 2:36)? No priesthood, no wards, no stake presidents, no office of patriarchs, no office of seventies. My, the more I look, the more it is evident that mormonism doesn't even remotely resemble anything found in the first century.
BTW, what was the name of the "church" in the first century 10?
Uhhhh 10, context is everything now isn't it. Paul was writing about the end of the world and that Christians would be raptured. BTW, the apostasy Paul was describing has a key component - the revelation of the antichrist. Since that hasn't happened, it is not the apostasy Paul was teaching about.
Dictionaries are not valid sources of theology for Christian. Since the passage only speaks about a rebellion against God - all peoples - are involved. Take time and read the context 10 - you may learn something.
So if the Bible and its teachings are ignored, the fervent Christians deny the need for ordinations and authority or lose said authority to act what would you call that? Who can baptize and if no one why baptize, it's just symbolic anyway, right?
Still never proven that these existed in the first century church. No temples for necro dunks, or sacred (secret) ordinances. BTW, according to mormonthink a 'fervent' Christian would not be lead into apostasy because they would have truth burning in their bosom eh.
It flies in the face of all our Lord and Master taught:
And according to your mormonthink only those apostles could baptize people - uuuuuuuh you better ignore Phillip then.
PS it isn't the gates of "hell" that won't prevail that won't prevail against the Church, but Hades - the holding place of the dead. Please do the research, be open minded and avoid eisegesis. The Bible doesn't say what you want to believe it does.
LOL, nice word games 10. Your eisgesis fails you again. Were you to read in CONTEXT you would see that the focus is not necessarly on Hades or Hell, but the imagery of the GATES.
And the gates of hell ... - Ancient cities were surrounded by walls. In the gates by which they were entered were the principal places for holding courts, transacting business, and deliberating on public matters. See the notes at Matthew 7:13. Compare the notes at Job 29:7. See also Deuteronomy 22:4; 1 Samuel 4:18; Jeremiah 36:10; Genesis 19:1; Psalm 69:12; Psalm 9:14; Proverbs 1:21. The word "gates," therefore, is used for counsels, designs, machinations, evil purposes.
"Hell" means, here, the place of departed spirits, particularly evil spirits; and the meaning of the passage is, that all the plots, stratagems, and machinations of the enemies of the church would not be able to overcome it a promise that has been remarkably fulfilled.
Sorry 10, there is no need for a restoration when Christ has preserved HIS church.
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