St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

DeaconsBench ^ | Monday August 24, 2009 | Beliefnet/Deacon's Bench

[Salvation]

St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

Monday August 24, 2009

Take a look:

A physicist who has spent years researching the tilma bearing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is affirming that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

Adolfo Orozco stated this in a presentation given at an International Marian Congress that took place Aug. 6-8 in Phoenix.

The congress, sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, the Phoenix Diocese and the Institute of Guadalupan Studies, was dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Orozco gave a presentation on the image of the Virgin imprinted on St. Juan Diego's tilma, stating that it is "completely outside" any scientific explanation.

He explained that due to the humid, salty environment around the basilica where the tilma is kept in Mexico City, the cloak material should have decomposed years ago.

In fact, the researcher noted, this is what happened to a painted copy of the image that was made in 1789, on a material similar to the original tilma.

Although the copy was preserved behind glass, like the original, it had to be discarded eight years later because it was falling apart and the painting was fading, the physicist reported.

The original image, however, which was imprinted on the cloak when the Blessed Virgin appeared to the saint, remains intact after 478 years.

Orozco told his audience that this phenomenon is heightened by the fact that it should have been destroyed twice, once when nitric acid was accidentally spilled on a section of the cloth, and another time when a bomb exploded close to it.

He affirmed that there is no natural explanation for how the image has survived undamaged through time and potentially destructive events such as these.

[Quix]

I think . . .

being interpreted . . .

that equals

NO, Salvation isn ot an RC Charismatic.

[Quix]

GIVEN

Shrillery’s documented education in UFO’s and ET’s at the hand of Rockefeller . . .

and

GIVEN the high likelihood that a huge percentage of the ‘Marian’ Apparition stuff has been staged over the centuries by the “ET’s”

I’d have thought that Shrillery would have known who was responsible.

[Quix]

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.”

---

Now, now, BD,

you MUST be forgetting,

Mother Superior Mary Caricature

was hovering above . . . or sheltered under a nearby arbor [bush] . . . or . . .

standing on a light beam from an invisible UFO . . .

or

circling overhead on a very large magic white hanky . . .

I mean, you can’t possibly imagine that

The SUPREME QUEEN OF HEAVEN, QUEEN & CONQUERESS OF HELL, SOLE AVENUE OF SALVATION AND SOLE ROUTE TO THE FATHER; SOLE DRAWER OF MEN TO GOD [Having bumped Holy Spirit from HIS job] . . . sharer in the hypostatic union of THE TRINITY/GODHEAD . . . yada yada yada

would have dared to allow

Jesus The Christ/Creator God

to have had ANY GIG

all to Himself—at any point—particularly as long as the ET holographic recorders were running!

/sar

[NYer]

GIVEN the high likelihood that a huge percentage of the ‘Marian’ Apparition stuff has been staged over the centuries by the “ET’s”

Lol ... love your sense of humor :-)

The other evening, the History Channel ran a program on angels, suggesting that, with time and technology, they will eventually be recognized as aliens. They don't need either. Angels are indeed "extra terrestrials".

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If salvation is the ultimate goal (which it is), and “Everything we need to know about salvation and our daily walk with Christ is in the Scriptures,” why did you bother going to school or educating your children?

Because, as you noted, I wrote the words "FOR SALVATION." Get it? The Bible doesn't say much about dentistry or plumbing, but it does provide EVERYTHING men require to understand salvation is a free gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I mean, if all you need for salvation is in the Bible - and nothing else is of value - why are you even preaching? Just hand out the Good Book, lock the church doors and everyone go home.

We preach the good news of the Bible so that those who are lost, like so many in Rome, may finally read the Bible, God willing, and learn the truth about Christ and faith and God and salvation.

Your position is absurd. It defies the Natural Law

lol. The Natural Law??? Ah, yes, the refuge of Roman Catholics everywhere.

All such "Natural Law" is corrupt just as all men have been corrupted by sin. It's self-deception to believe that human nature is basically good and that "natural law" follows as a result of this good and pure "nature."

It's like the man who is near-sighted thinks he sees everything clearly and correctly until he puts on the lens of Scripture which, for the first time, rightly aligns his perceptions to the truth.

Without this lens, fallen man will continue to think well of himself and believe he is capable of pleasing God.

Ain't gonna happen.

"Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above." -- Rose Sayer, "African Queen."

[metmom]

If salvation is the ultimate goal (which it is), and “Everything we need to know about salvation and our daily walk with Christ is in the Scriptures,” why did you bother going to school or educating your children?

What's the fact that every thing we need to know about salvation got to do with going to school or educating our children?

I mean, if all you need for salvation is in the Bible - and nothing else is of value - why are you even preaching?

Who said nothing else is of value?

[metmom]

What I find amusing is that the atheist and anti-God types sneer at religion and things like angels and demons and heaven and hell and yet turn around and wax philosophical and oh so knowledgeable about extra-terrestrials and alternate dimensions.

But use religious terms to describe the very same concepts and you’re a kook.

[Quix]

It is, by the best evidence and experts, the fallen angels who were/are involved with the Fatima

and other ‘appearances,’ apparitions purporting to be Mary.

Their ‘skills’ and ‘technologies’ are well able to engineer such deceptions.

However, I have 0.000000000000000000% expectation of any FREQUENT RC posters believing a bit of the truth about such things.

[Quix]

It’s very typical

IN-GROUP VS OUT-GROUP

MENTALITIES and dynamics . . . and perspectives.

Such dynamics tend to have little to do with truth vs falsehood.

[editor-surveyor]

"Your position is absurd. It defies the Natural Law"

Such nonsense coming out of the mouth of a professing 'Christian' is what is absurd. Natural Law is the concoction of the Gnostics, Illuminists, and Freemasons. It is 180 degrees out of phase with God's word.

I thought that the Romish were against Gnostics, Illuminists, and Freemasons.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen. They worship the creature rather than the Creator. They deny men’s fallen nature, and in doing so, they reveal themselves to be self-deceived.

[Iscool]

Without Communion of (all) the Saints, we cannot have full knowledge of the Mystical Body of Christ. Also, as I said before, without this understanding, Our Lady of Guadalupe is incomprehensible.

What have the Catholic Saints in heaven revealed to you guys that you now have the full knowledge of the Mystical Body of Christ???

[Iscool]

(If) “Everything we need to know about salvation and our daily walk with Christ is in the Scriptures,” why did you bother going to school or educating your children?

There's no 'if' to it...It IS in the scriptures,

Whatta ya think??? God figures all Christians should line up at the welfare office???

[The Theophilus]

[if] “salvation is the ultimate goal (which it is), Everything we need to know about salvation and our daily walk with Christ is in the Scriptures...

I reject the premise. Salvation has never been the ultimate goal or else ALL would be saved.

The ultimate goal is for God to reveal His Glory. (Ps 113:4-6)

The Lord is high above all nations,
His glory above the heavens.
Who is like the Lord our God,
Who dwells on high,
Who humbles Himself to behold
The things that are in the heavens and in the earth?

Given the last statement, we find that salvation is all but a small part of how God's manifests His glory. He delights in lifting up the poor and needy out of the dust and ash heaps and seating them among the princes. He turns the hearts of kings, forms and channels the rivers, defines the boundaries, calls His people to Himself. Therefore there is Glory in the works of Righteousness that come from our daily activities.

To limit the "Why" to just "salvation" is to be a Deist, not a friend of God.

[RnMomof7]

The ultimate goal is for God to reveal His Glory. (Ps 113:4-6)

AMEN

[D-fendr]

What have the Catholic Saints in heaven revealed to you guys that you now have the full knowledge of the Mystical Body of Christ???

The answer is right in front of you. But, as I said before, it's incomprehensible to you.

[mdmathis6]

Well I think there is a difference between the “signs” as mentioned in the Matthew text and miracles that God had wrought thru the apostles at least after Christ returned to heaven and the Holy Spirit was sent. The pharisees sought some overwhelming proof that their world view was incorrect hoping against hope that Jesus was false because the pharisees were so comfortable in their perverse corruption. That is what Jesus was confronting where he declared that only the sign of the resurrection would be given to them.

There certainly have been miracles since Christ went back to heaven even after the times of the apostles but most are not necessarily big and splashy! True, not everyone who gets prayed for gets healed but many Christians can attest to sudden reversals of lab tests or of tumors that have suddenly vanished after being prayed for. Sums of money have appeared, just enough to meet a desperate person’s needs. Souls have been saved. I knew a woman whose heavy alcoholism was just taken from her upon her salvation, with no resultant DT’s. Other substance abusers who became Christians didn’t have all their desires taken from them but had to “twelve step” it, but their’s is ongoing miracle of grace as they carry their crosses for the Lord. Paul didn’t have his thorn taken out of his flesh yet at the same token, God used Paul to perform miracles thru him.

The general sorts of miracles God is doing is a kind of “down here in the trenches, tactical” sort of miracles...every day “day of small things” kind of miracles that often we are dimly aware of at best. Later reflection can bring upon the realization of just what God was doing in “this situation” or “that event” leaving one in a kind of mental...”face palming, self smacking of the head” kind of thankfulness for the grace of God that kept us from flying apart in our darkest moments!

[mdmathis6]

Psalm 113:1 Praise the LORD.[a]
Praise the LORD, you his servants;
praise the name of the LORD.
2 Let the name of the LORD be praised,
both now and forevermore.
3 From the rising of the sun to the place where it sets,
the name of the LORD is to be praised.

4 The LORD is exalted over all the nations,
his glory above the heavens.
5 Who is like the LORD our God,
the One who sits enthroned on high,
6 who stoops down to look
on the heavens and the earth?

7 He raises the poor from the dust
and lifts the needy from the ash heap;
8 he seats them with princes,
with the princes of his people.
9 He settles the childless woman in her home
as a happy mother of children.

Praise the LORD.

The context of the verse you lifted from Psalms 113 changes when you see the whole Psalm as written, especially verses 7-9. A great deal of God’s glory seems invested in the kindness God longs to show to mankind. The Psalmist is praising God in that God in all his glory longs to lift up fallen man to himself...
and to that I too lift up my voice!

{I PRAISE YOU OH GOD!}

It is certainly true that God “doesn’t need us” and is simply “glorious” for who HE IS! Yet when he put his thumbprint into our matter universe, coming in the flesh, sending his son Jesus only to be put to death for our sins, you can’t tell me that God hasn’t put forth a very significant investment of his own Glory for our sakes. Indeed, I think that makes God, all the more “GLORIOUS”!

{Again I PRAISE YOU, OH GOD...for allowing me the priviledge and my very existence to utter praises to YOU and of your NAME!}

[mdmathis6]

HA HA ha HO HO HO ha ha ha!

Mary...beam me up! Scotty has a hangover!

[mdmathis6]

The ultimate goal of God concerning men is to have his Glory revealed in men(hence my tagline)! It was a costly investment as the fullness of the Godhead was exposed to the consciousness and the rigors of physical death thru the Son Jesus Christ. What, you think the Son and the Father stopped being “one”, even in death on the cross?