St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

DeaconsBench ^ | Monday August 24, 2009 | Beliefnet/Deacon's Bench

[Salvation]

St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

Monday August 24, 2009

Take a look:

A physicist who has spent years researching the tilma bearing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is affirming that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

Adolfo Orozco stated this in a presentation given at an International Marian Congress that took place Aug. 6-8 in Phoenix.

The congress, sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, the Phoenix Diocese and the Institute of Guadalupan Studies, was dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Orozco gave a presentation on the image of the Virgin imprinted on St. Juan Diego's tilma, stating that it is "completely outside" any scientific explanation.

He explained that due to the humid, salty environment around the basilica where the tilma is kept in Mexico City, the cloak material should have decomposed years ago.

In fact, the researcher noted, this is what happened to a painted copy of the image that was made in 1789, on a material similar to the original tilma.

Although the copy was preserved behind glass, like the original, it had to be discarded eight years later because it was falling apart and the painting was fading, the physicist reported.

The original image, however, which was imprinted on the cloak when the Blessed Virgin appeared to the saint, remains intact after 478 years.

Orozco told his audience that this phenomenon is heightened by the fact that it should have been destroyed twice, once when nitric acid was accidentally spilled on a section of the cloth, and another time when a bomb exploded close to it.

He affirmed that there is no natural explanation for how the image has survived undamaged through time and potentially destructive events such as these.

[Lera]

I enlarged the photo to see what was under it ,it’s an angel

[Revolting cat!]

Why is it that there are no parlor trick “miracles” like this recorded in the Bible

I know, there are no card tricks either! What good is the Bible then?

[Revolting cat!]

And me, I didn’t know what a tilma was. I’ve known since the first grade about tilmàtli, and that the middle class used a tilmàtli made of ayate fibre, a coarse fabric derived from the threads of the maguey agave.

[johngrace]

Oh! the Glorious stereotypes!!! I will be praying for You!! But in the mean time!! Watch it!! Sis!! We are watching you! ROFL!!

[marbren]

I do know it is an angel I was talking about using eyes that can see. Every thing I am posting here is speculation or revelation. I do not know but, Thank God, God knows. The mother of God stuff goes back to Babylon. Did not the golden calf have a sun disk in between its horns? Here we see that the sun God might be Mary? Islam also loves Mary. She will be a point of unity in the coming one world religion.

[marbren]

maybe you could ask siri?

[marbren]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbeBDyggwvk

excellent video

[marbren]

Do a google image search of Mary guadalupe and squint your eyes.

[Lera]

Duh ... now I see it
thanks

[Lera]

I got better weapons lol

[johngrace]

YEAH! wait I will be Right with you Let me Do 3 or 4 tokes. Now wait Oh!! I see it! But let me toke some more! So it is clarified!! Oh yeah Baby! I get it Now!!! Yeah !!

[marbren]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFQFOwrRP9A&context=C3bc6997ADOEgsToPDskJbRDU9umAYpbgJPq7_D1UE

A 4 year old drew some interesting pictures.

[marbren]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFQFOwrRP9A&context=C3bc6997ADOEgsToPDskJbRDU9umAYpbgJPq7_D1UE

A 4 year old drew some interesting pictures.

[MarkBsnr]

Sadly, he is thoroughly wrong. I’d MUCH RATHER he was 100% correct. That would be WONDERFUL

Interesting. I don't recall the last time that I found narses wrong. I take narses very seriously. It is people who believe in little green men taking over the world and eating people in slurries and trying to link them to the Bible that I take lightly.

[narses]

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)

[MarkBsnr]

That day of wrath,
that dreadful day,
shall heaven and earth in ashes lay,
as David and the Sybil say.

What horror must invade the mind
when the approaching Judge shall find
and sift the deeds of all mankind!

The mighty trumpet’s wondrous tone
shall rend each tomb’s sepulchral stone
and summon all before the Throne.
Now death and nature with surprise
behold the trembling sinners rise
to meet the Judge’s searching eyes.

Then shall with universal dread
the Book of Consciences be read
to judge the lives of all the dead.

For now before the Judge severe
all hidden things must plain appear;
no crime can pass unpunished here.

O what shall I, so guilty plead?
and who for me will intercede?
when even Saints shall comfort need?

O King of dreadful majesty!
grace and mercy You grant free;
as Fount of Kindness, save me!

Recall, dear Jesus, for my sake
you did our suffering nature take
then do not now my soul forsake!

In weariness You sought for me,
and suffering upon the tree!
let not in vain such labor be.

O Judge of justice, hear, I pray,
for pity take my sins away
before the dreadful reckoning day.

You gracious face, O Lord, I seek;
deep shame and grief are on my cheek;
in sighs and tears my sorrows speak.

You Who did Mary’s guilt unbind,
and mercy for the robber find,
have filled with hope my anxious mind.

How worthless are my prayers I know,
yet, Lord forbid that I should go
into the fires of endless woe.

Divorced from the accursed band,
o make me with Your sheep to stand,
as child of grace, at Your right Hand.

When the doomed can no more flee
from the fires of misery
with the chosen call me.

Before You, humbled, Lord, I lie,
my heart like ashes, crushed and dry,
assist me when I die.

Full of tears and full of dread
is that day that wakes the dead,
calling all, with solemn blast
to be judged for all their past.

Amen.

Lord, have mercy, Jesus blest,
grant them all Your Light and Rest.

Amen.

[narses]

``Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church’’

Ignatius of Antioch, 1st c. A.D

[MarkBsnr]

``Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church’’

Ignatius of Antioch, 1st c. A.D

We stand on the shoulders of giants, my friend.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

Quix asked me to respond via email even though he knows I often disagree with him. So you might enjoy this post [I hope.]

[I’m trying not to tempt myself with the forum these days.]

Over the years I have been under the impression that Quix is fully aware that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin, which is why Quix normally chooses his words with care. He also has learned how to respectfully point things out due to Far East influences. He is a learned man [but I often disagree].

Quix has made suggestions about the Miracle of Fatima as well, but always with a sense of respect for different viewpoints. I have tried to note politely that not even the smartest of aliens could prophesize the rise of communist Russia. But scholars claim that Fatima was a UFO/demonic deception to trick people into saying their rosaries.

The claims Quix makes are founded on scholarly studies. I believe Quix is perfectly well intended and is heavily influenced by certain Protestant scholars who want religion to be more verbal and less spiritual. That is a common problem in religion since scholars almost always hijack a successful religion and attempt to make it more synthetic the same way law makes justice synthetic.

Ironically, Jesus warned us to seek those surrounded by miracles, who lift venomous snakes and drink poison unharmed [though we should not tempt the Lord by doing such things to show off], and who can cast out evil spirits. [End of Mark or maybe John if I recall].

Many Protestant scholars refer to UFOs as instruments of the antichrist, which helps explain things they refuse to understand, just as the Pharisees tricked Israelites into calling Jesus the son of Bealzabub [sic].

At the same time, I personally don’t denounce people who turn to UFO theories regarding miracles. There is often a scientific explanation for a miracle, the opportunity for non-believers and scholars [to doubt] almost always exists. Jesus thanked His Father for counfounding the learned with truths that are plain for any child to see.

But please consider this — God normally works through people, animals, and nature. If there are UFOs/Aliens, the Creator has power over them as well to be instruments of good, and Satan has chances to pervert them into instruments of evil. As Europeans learned, being more advanced does not make one less mortal.

Just has outrageous “fables” have been explained scientifically [such as the burning bush — actually occurs, the parting of the Red Sea — actually occurs, mannah from heaven — actually occurs] I’d personally not draw too many concrete conclusions about writings from an ancient viewpoint.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind reply.

You make many astute observations.