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Joseph Smith Married Other Men's Wives: Would you share your spouse with the Prophet?
Rethinking Mormonism ^

Posted on 11/28/2010 11:46:07 AM PST by delacoert

Joseph Smith's Failed Proposals to Married Women

John Taylor's Wife, Leonora
"The Prophet went to the home of President Taylor, and said to him, 'Brother John, I WANT LEONORA.'" Taylor was stunned, but after walking the floor all night, the obedient elder said to Smith, "If GOD wants Leonora He can have her." Woodruff concluded: "That was all the prophet was after, to see where President Taylor stood in the matter, and said to him, Brother Taylor, I dont want your wife, I just wanted to know just where you stood."
- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, John Mills Whitaker Journal, Nov. 1 1890; emphasis in original

Heber C. Kimball's Wife, Vilate
“During the summer of 1841, shortly after Heber's return from England, he was introduced to the doctrine of plural marriage directly through a startling test-a sacrifice which shook his very being and challenged his faith to the ultimate. He had already sacrificed homes, possessions, friends, relatives, all worldly rewards, peace, and tranquility for the Restoration. Nothing was left to place on the altar save his life, his children, and his wife. Joseph demanded for himself what to Heber was the unthinkable, his Vilate. Totally crushed spiritually and emotionally, Heber touched neither food nor water for three days and three nights and continually sought confirmation and comfort from God." Finally, after "some kind of assurance," Heber took Vilate to the upper room of Joseph's store on Water Street. The Prophet wept at this act of faith, devotion, and obedience. Joseph had never intended to take Vilate. It was all a test."
- Biography of Heber C. Kimball, "Heber C. Kimball, Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer." By Stanley B. Kimball, page 93.

Orson Pratt's Wife, Sarah
"Sometime in late 1840 or early 1841, Joseph Smith confided to his friend that he was smitten by the "amiable and accomplished" Sarah Pratt and wanted her for "one of hisspiritual wives, for the Lord had given her to him as a special favor for his faithfulness" (emphasis in original). Shortly afterward, the two men took some of Bennett's sewing to Sarah's house. During the visit, as Bennett describes it, Joseph said, "Sister Pratt, the Lord has given you to me as one of my spiritual wives. I have the blessings of Jacob granted me, as God granted holy men of old, and as I have long looked upon you with favor, and an earnest desire of connubial bliss, I hope you will not repulse or deny me." "And is that the great secret that I am not to utter," Sarah replied. "Am I called upon to break the marriage covenant, and prove recreant to my lawful husband! I never will." She added, "I care not for the blessings of Jacob. I have one good husband, and that is enough for me." But according to Bennett, the Prophet was persistent. Finally Sarah angrily told him on a subsequent visit, "Joseph, if you ever attempt any thing of the kind with me again, I will make a full disclosure to Mr. Pratt on his return home. Depend upon it, I will certainly do it." "Sister Pratt," the Prophet responded, "I hope you will not expose me, for if I suffer, all must suffer; so do not expose me. Will you promise me that you will not do it?" "If you will never insult me again," Sarah replied, "I will not expose you unless strong circumstances should require it." "If you should tell," the Prophet added, "I will ruin your reputation, remember that."
(Article "Sarah M. Pratt" by Richard A. Van Wagoner, Dialogue, Vol.19, No.2, p.72. Also see: http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/spratt.htm)

William Law's Wife, Jane
"William Law, a former counselor in the First Presidency, wrote in his 13 May 1844 diary: "[Joseph] ha[s] lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and ha[s] found her a virtuous woman" The Laws elaborated on this in a public meeting shortly thereafter. "The Prophet had made dishonorable proposals to [my] wife . . . under cover of his asserted 'Revelation,' " Law stated. He further explained that Joseph came to the Law home in the middle of the night when William was absent and told Jane that "the Lord had commanded that he should take spiritual wives, to add to his glory." Law then called on his wife to corroborate what he had said. She did so and further explained that Joseph had "asked her to give him half her love; she was at liberty to keep the other half for her husband" Jane refused the Prophet, and according to William Law's 20 January 1887 letter to the Salt Lake Tribune, Smith then considered the couple apostates. "Jane had been speaking evil of him for a long time . . . slandered him, and lied about him without cause," Law reported Smith as saying. "My wife would not speak evil of . . . anyone . . . without cause," Law asserted. "Joseph is the liar and not she. That Smith admired and lusted after many men's wives and daughters, is a fact, but they could not help that. They or most of them considered his admiration an insult, and treated him with scorn. In return for this scorn, he generally managed to blacken their reputations--see the case of . . . Mrs. Pratt, a good, virtuous woman."
("Mormon Polygamy" by Richard S. Van Wagoner, page 44)

Hiram Kimball's wife, Sarah
Sarah M. Kimball, a prominent Nauvoo and Salt Lake City Relief Society leader was also approached by the Prophet in early 1842 despite her solid 1840 marriage to Hiram Kimball. Sarah later recalled that

Sarah Kimball, like Sarah Pratt, was committed to her husband, and refused the Prophet's invitation, asking that he "teach it to someone else." Although she kept the matter quiet, her husband and Smith evidently had difficulties over Smith's proposal. On 19 May 1842, at a Nauvoo City Council meeting, Smith jotted down and then "threw across the room" a revelation to Kimball which declared that "Hiram Kimball has been insinuating evil, and formulating evil opinions" against the Prophet, which if he does not desist from, he "shall be accursed." Sarah remained a lifetime member of the Church and a lifelong wife to Hiram Kimball. 
- "LDS Biographical Encyclopedia" By Elder Andrew Jensen, 6:232, 1887, Official History of the Church 5: 12-13,

Note: Although Joseph Smith did not take Hiram Kimball's wife as a plural wife, Smith later secretly married Hiram's fourteen-year-old daughter, Helen Mar Kimball. Read her story here: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm

Sidney Rigdon's daughter, Nancy
Read her story and Joseph Smith's explanation here

Joseph Smith's Successful Proposals to Married Women

Adam Lightner's wife, Mary
Mary Elizabeth Rollins, already married to non-Mormon Adam Lightner since 11 August 1835, was one of the first women to accept a polyandrous proposal from Joseph Smith. "He was commanded to take me for a wife," she wrote in a 21 November 1880 letter to Emmeline B. Wells. "I was his, before I came here," she added in an 8 February 1902 statement. Brigham Young secretly sealed the two in February 1842 when Mary was eight months pregnant with her son George Algernon Lightner. She lived with her real husband Adam Lightner until his death in Utah many years later. In her 1880 letter to Emmeline B. Wells, Mary explained: "I could tell you why I stayed with Mr. Lightner. Things the leaders of the Church do not know anything about. I did just as Joseph told me to do, as he knew what troubles I would have to contend with." She added on 23 January 1892 in a letter to John R. Young: "I could explain some things in regard to my living with Mr. L[ightner] after becoming the Wife of Another (Joseph Smith), which would throw light, on what now seems mysterious--and you would be perfectly satisfied with me. I write this; because I have heard that it had been commented on to my injury"
(Lightner, Mary E. Statement. 8 Feb. 1902; Lightner to Emmeline B. Wells, 21 Nov. 1880; Lightner to John R. Young, 25 Jan. 1892. George A. Smith Papers. Special Collections. University of Utah)

Orson Hyde's Wife, Marinda
Marinda Nancy Johnson, sister of Apostles Luke and Lyman Johnson, married Orson Hyde in 1834. A year before Hyde returned from Jerusalem in 1843, Marinda was sealed to Joseph Smith in April of 1842, though she lived with Orson until their divorce in 1870. Many suspect Joseph Smith was the actual father of Marinda's son Frank Henry who was born on 23 Jan 1845, for two reasons. First, because Marinda had been the polygamous wife of Smith since Apr 1842. Second, because Smith had sent her first husband, Orson Hyde, on a mission to Washington on April 4, 1844 "immediately" after a meeting with Joseph Smith (History of the Church, pg. 286). The gestation period for a human is on average 266 days (not 9 months), which would date the conception to early May 1844. Of course, 266 is an average date and the figures vary. To give you an idea of the range, only four percent of pregnancies are actually carried two weeks or more beyond the average time (Guttmacher, 1983). Frank Henry was born on January 23, 1845. Orson Hyde left for Washington April 4, 1844. The difference in these two dates is 294 days! That is almost a month longer than expected and is basically physiologically impossible, especially considering that Orson Hyde had not returned to Nauvoo until August 6, 1844.
(Andrew Jenson, Church Chronology, August 6, 1844) Marinda later divorced Orson Hyde and voiced her disgust of polygamy.

Windsor Lyon's Wife, Sylvia
Sylvia P. Sessions, married to Windsor P. Lyon, gave birth to a daughter on 8 February 1844, less than five months before Joseph Smith's martyrdom. That daughter, Josephine, related in a 24 February 1915 statement that prior to her mother's death in 1882 "she called me to her bedside and told me that her days on earth were about numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and all others but which she now desired to communicate to me." Josephine's mother told her she was "the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church."
(Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915)

Norman Buell's Wife, Prescindia
Prescindia D. Huntington, a faithful Mormon and married woman in Nauvoo, was also a polyandrous wife of Joseph Smith. Prescindia had married Norman Buell in 1827 and had two sons by him before joining Mormonism in 1836. She was secretly sealed to Joseph Smith by her brother Dimick on 11 December 1841, though she continued to live with her husband Buell until 1846, when she left him to marry Heber C. Kimball. In a "letter to my eldest grand-daughter living in 1880," she explained that Norman Buell had left the Church in 1839, but that "the Lord gave me strength to Stand alone & keep the faith amid heavy persecution." (Mormon Polygamy: A History" by Richard S. Van Wagoner, page 44)

Prescindia, who was Normal Buell's wife and simultaneously a "plural wife" of the Prophet Joseph Smith, said that she did not know whether her husband Norman "or the Prophet was the father of her son, Oliver." And a glance at a photo of Oliver shows a strong resemblance to Emma Smith's boys.
(Mary Ettie V. Smith, "Fifteen Years Among the Mormons", page 34; Fawn Brodie "No Man Knows My History" pages 301-302, 437-39)

Lucinda Morgan Harris, wife of Far West high councilor George Harris, admitted in 1842 that she had been Smith's "mistress since four years," and it is known that she visited Smith while he was incarcerated in Liberty Jail in 1838.

Henry Jacob's Wife, Zina
Prescindia's twenty-year-old sister Zina was living in the Joseph Smith home when Elder Henry B. Jacobs married her in March 1841. According to family records, when Zina and Henry asked Joseph Smith why he had not honored them by performing their marriage, Smith replied that "the Lord had made it known to him that [Zina] was to be his Celestial wife." Believing that "whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God's authorities bend to the reasoning of any man," the devout Elder Jacobs consented for six-months-pregnant Zina to be sealed to Joseph Smith 27 October 1841. Some have suggested that the Jacobs's marriage was "unhappy" and that the couple had separated before her sealing to Joseph Smith. But, though sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity, Zina continued her connubial relationship with her husband Henry Jacobs. On 2 February 1846, pregnant with Henry's second son, Zina was re-sealed by proxy to the murdered Joseph Smith and in that same session was “sealed for time" to Brigham Young. Faithful Henry B. Jacobs stood by as an official witness to both ceremonies.
("History of Henry Bailey Jacobs." By Ora J. Cannon, page 5-7. also see "Recollections of Zina D. Young" by Mary Brown Firmage)

Zina and Henry lived together as husband and wife until the Mormon pioneers reached Mt. Pisgah, Iowa. At this temporary stop on the pioneer trail, Brigham Young announced that "it was time for men who were walking in other men's shoes to step out of them. Brother Jacobs, the woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed up to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirit" (Hall 1853, 43-44). President Young then called Jacobs on a mission to England. Witnesses to his departure commented that he was so emotionally ill they had to "put him on a blanket and carry him to the boat to get him on his way".
("Short Sketch of the Life of Henry B. Jacobs" By Ora J. Cannon)

Henry returned from his mission and settled in California. But he was still in love with his wife Zina, now a plural wife of Brigham Young. Henry's letters to his wife Zina were heartrending. On 2 September 1852 he wrote: "O how happy I should be if I only could see you and the little children, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh." "I am unhappy," Henry lamented, "there is no peace for poor me, my pleasure is you, my comfort has vanished.... O Zina, can I ever, will I ever get you again, answer the question please." In an undated Valentine he added:

It was the rule rather than the exception for Smith to encourage a polyandrous wife to remain with her legal husband.
Faithful Mormon Joseph Kingsbury even wrote that he served as a surrogate husband for Joseph Smith:
 

Read Mormon apologist explanations for why Joseph Smith married other men's wives:
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf

Did Joseph Smith have sex with his wives?
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm

Did Joseph Smith emotionally blackmail these women into marriage?
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/angel_sword.htm

Read the detailed history of each of Joseph Smith's 33 plural wives in Todd Compton's excellent book In Sacred Loneliness.

For some details on the other married women Joseph married and impregnated, see: 
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org 
http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/polyg.htm
http://www.lds-mormon.com/isl.shtml
http://www.mormonismi.info/jamesdavid/menwives.htm

For more discussion on Mormon sexuality, see this on-line article:
Sexuality Within The Contemporary Mormon Experience


TOPICS: Other non-Christian
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; mormon
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To: Saundra Duffy
Wow! So you don’t believe in the Virgin Birth?

I do, but if you do, you are calling your prophets liars. Your church teaches that "Heavenly Father" came to earth in a human form and had physical sex with Mary, his spirit daughter. Incest.

Look here for quote after quote from your very own "prophets"

"The Father came down and begat him, the same as we do now..." (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, vol. 1, p. 321; February 16, 1849, Salt Lake City) [brigham Young, second prophet of the LDS church]

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115)[Joseph Smith, 1st prophet of the lDS]

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 7; cf. Come unto Christ, p. 4). [Ezra Taft Benson, 13th prophet of the lDS church]

************************************************

From the Christian Bible, the Word of God:

This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. Matthew 1:18

But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” 34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke

261 posted on 11/29/2010 3:34:12 PM PST by T Minus Four (Duh. We were talking about in the old days or not-so-distant old days)
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To: Paperdoll

“God created angels. One angel coveted the worship and power of God, Himself, so he rebelled and called himself Lucifer.” Not really. The name ‘Lucifer’ was placed in Isaiah chapter fourteen when Jerome translated the Hebrew Tanakh into Latin ... ‘Lucifer’ is a Latin name not designtaed originally for the fallen angel but for a Babylonian King who was very bad. Smith included the Latin name in his supposed direct quote of Isaiah found int he poorly written novel, ‘Book of Mormon’ as Smith copied the passage directly from a King Jmaes Bible and claimed he was translating from ‘golden plates’ which he carried under his arm, weighing around a ton and a half. ... Yeah, Smith was a conman extraordanaire to be sure. He even included the Latin name in his supposed direct translation of ‘The Pearl of Great Price’ con from Egyptian heiroglyphs he couldn’t read.


262 posted on 11/29/2010 3:37:15 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: DelphiUser; Jim Robinson

Hey DU, I think you’ve been around long enough to know that it’s custom and courtesy to ping someone mentioned in your post. Especially if you are casting aspersions on his or her motives and conduct.

Especially if it’s the big guy himself.

You are here at his pleasure, as are we all.


263 posted on 11/29/2010 3:42:52 PM PST by T Minus Four (Duh. We were talking about in the old days or not-so-distant old days)
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To: DelphiUser

You need to work on your spelling.


264 posted on 11/29/2010 3:44:51 PM PST by T Minus Four (Duh. We were talking about in the old days or not-so-distant old days)
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To: DelphiUser; Elsie; aMorePerfectUnion
The second being, the translation of the word "one". the phrase is "mia gune aner" in Greek and it is questionably interpreted in the Bible. Google shows us this is still under debate today by many Christians so to present it as a concrete argument against polygamy, when I know we have discussed it before is well misleading at best. Mia gune aner (the Greek Paul used) can be translated as One wife of a husband, at least one wife of a husband or a first wife of a husband. If he meant only one wife, he would have omitted the mia and used only gune aner which would have meant wife of a husband, singular.

It is 'questionably' translated by those seeking to bolster polygamy. Now given your poor biblical skills you dabble in greek LOL, from whence are you copying from DU?

For starters, if Paul had intended 'first' wife he would have used the word 'protos'.

Secondly, mia (fem) is a cardinal number, it is only translated as 'first' in only in cases of time (BAG, s.v. 'eis' and Blass/Debrunner/Funk, topic 247, 'syntax of numerals").

Since Paul was speaking into a gentile world where polygamy was occasionally practiced, Paul had to make clear, the husband was married to only one wife, hence the use of mia.

The 'translations' of "at least one wife" or a "first wife" are non-starters for this very reason. Nothing in the greek (were du to actually delve deeper) suggests "at least", nor is it translated "first" under these conditions.

Note the other applicable scriptures:

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (NIV Matt 19.8-9)

Glad to be able to correct your greek application DU.

265 posted on 11/29/2010 3:50:34 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: The Comedian

My pleasure, oh smilemeister. :)


266 posted on 11/29/2010 3:53:16 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: DelphiUser; All
"Mark fooled not only the church..."

No, he fooled a mormon prophet and general authorities as well as their experts.

So much for that "discernment" and ability to receive "revelation from god" we are constantly told the mormon prophets are supposed to have.

267 posted on 11/29/2010 4:14:14 PM PST by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore; Elsie; greyfoxx39

Wow! I don’t know how I missed this before, but anybody that doesn’t follow the logic put forth here is indeed not being honest with themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTtq62XQ4jw&feature=related


268 posted on 11/29/2010 4:52:59 PM PST by Utah Binger (Southern Utah, where the world comes to see America)
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To: Godzilla; Saundra Duffy
Lurkers will note that du’s ‘definition is vague.

Whatever, I guess it's all just too vague for you... Except where trinity appears in the Bible (NOWHERE!) Interested parties can read all about it, otherwise...

Lurkers will note that this is not accurate either. According to mormon theology, all of the gods in the mormon pantheon exist within time. According to their doctrine, heavenly father was once a man and progressed to becoming a ‘god’ and that Jesus was a created being (the ‘son’). Sequential actions require time.

This is a complete fabrication, there is no pantheon, and God, the Godhead, and all who will become Gods exist outside of time, or they are not like God which is what we hope to become. Godzilla, we have had this discussion before, you know better.

Are you just trying to prove Saundra right too? Its been done already.

So, Nit picking aside, are men children of God are aren't we? (You always want to lose yourself int eh details Godzilla, and nobody wants to read that much "stuff" so yes or no)

#4 Are you having reading comprehension problems?

#5 nit picking is all you got? LOL!

DU Jesus, God the father's only Begotten in the flesh (a very interesting phrase if you stop to think of all the meaning(s) there...)

GZ Indeed, let’s stop there, because mormon theology sticks its nose into du’s train of logic, derailing it. Heavenly father HAD to be a man at one time, and HAD to have gotten married (celestial requirement) and thus would have BEGOTTEN others IN THE FLESH. Woopsie, clean-up on isle 5.

Really Godzilla, I am embarrassed for you, there is indeed an clean up needed here, but it's your mess not mine.

Let me ask you a simple question, Don't worry, I'll use small words. Do you know any men who never had kids?

I'll leave you to contemplate your jumping to conclusions that just aren't there for a while...

Last point first – mormons are polytheists because they admittedly claim that there are uncounted multitudes of other gods. This just makes the lie worse.

We worship one God, the One God, the God of Abraham, and of Issac, and of Jacob. The bible itself mentions many gods. I believe men can make Gods to themselves of Sports teams, money, cars or an other hobby. Anything that you hold in your heart above God is worshiping another god before God.

Godzilla, you are welcome to your belief, just don't tell people I believe in polytheism, because it's just not true. I have told you tat many times. There is no excuse for you to still be saying it.

Lurkers will note the childish logic here.

We have all noted your logic.

God is God, therefore we will inherit that same Godhood as well. As noted earlier, we are ADOPTED children, not ontologically God’s children.

Let's explore a few scriptures shall we?

John 10:34 Jesus refers to all unto whom the word of God comes as the Children of God.
Matthew 6 Jesus keeps speaking of your father which is in heaven, thy father, your heavenly Father, etc.
Matthew 5:48God commands us (the imperfect) to be perfect, like our Father
John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary Magdalen to tell the disciples "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

There are tons more, now you will say that we are adopted unto God as children, and there is some truth to that we have many relationships to God. I'll list a few: I challenge you Godzilla prove to me that We are not the literal offspring of God, his spirit children, go on, I double Dog dare you.

As a separate created being, humans can at best equate this ‘heir’ ship to similar to a pet inheriting a fortune. Finally, for Du’s little bleat here to be true, God must be made out to be a liar

God is not a liar, I will not assert the same for anti Mormons. Lurkers will find some humor in this – claiming a concept from the bible and the early church as an acceptable term – theosis – is ok for mormon use. But the same is not acceptable for the Trinity – LOL, if it weren’t for double standards there would be no standards for mormon apologists at all.

It's called projection Godzilla. Throughout the Bible, One is used in a specific way, men and women are commanded to be one (marriage), the believers are commanded to be one, Jesus commands us to be one with him, and then in John 17:21-22 Jesus himself gives us a simile, comparing his oneness with God the father with the Oneness that the Disciples should have. and then when Jesus says that he and The Father are "one" it's substance.

Well, believe whatever you want, just stop saying it's the only valid interpretation, and stop trying to interpret the Bible for me, so far it's been an epic fail on your part. Links about the oneness of God

Skipping to find something that's not inflammatory, but relevant...

Lurkers can easily see with further research that Theosis is at its most simplest, the removal of sin and sin nature from the life of the believer in a way restoring them to a sinless nature like Adam and Eve initially had – adding a glorified body. There is a chasm that Evil Knevil wouldn’t attempt to jump to say that this makes one a ‘god’ like heavenly father.

Let's take a look at another "Church Hather" Hippolytus then: For people who don't know who Hippolytus was, that link goes to my quotes and linkst to tha authoritative sources, namely the Catholic Encyclopaedia online...

From A refutation of all heresies Book X
"Such is the true doctrine in regard of the divine nature, O you men, Greeks and Barbarians, Chaldeans and Assyrians, Egyptians and Libyans, Indians and Ethiopians, Celts, and you Latins, who lead armies, and all you that inhabit Europe, and Asia, and Libya. And to you I am become an adviser, inasmuch as I am a disciple of the benevolent Logos, and hence humane, in order that you may hasten and by us may be taught who the true God is, and what is His well-ordered creation. Do not devote your attention to the fallacies of artificial discourses, nor the vain promises of plagiarizing heretics, but to the venerable simplicity of unassuming truth. And by means of this knowledge you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word!

You shall escape the boiling flood of hell's eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shall you avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God. And you shall possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And you shall receive the kingdom of heaven, you who, while you sojourned in this life, knew the Celestial King. And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God: for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality. This constitutes the import of the proverb, "Know yourself" i.e., discover God within yourself, for He has formed you after His own image. For with the knowledge of self is conjoined the being an object of God's knowledge, for you are called by the Deity Himself. Be not therefore inflamed, O you men, with enmity one towards another, nor hesitate to retrace with all speed your steps. For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings, rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards you. And provided you obey His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, you shall resemble Him, inasmuch as you shall have honour conferred upon you by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish anything of the divinity of His divine perfection; having made you even God unto His glory!"

(Emphasis added by me)
So, if "the foremost theologian of his day" as Eusebius called him, and the man chosen to write "a refutation of all heresies" makes that jump, then maybe I'll make it too, after all. Religion is about faith, or it's just not worth a tinkers dam. (A tinkers dam is a small piece of metal hammered into a hole in a pot, the dam was free you paid for the tinker's time, it's not swearing).

I’ve always wanted say this to DU – how do you know it wasn’t his “opinion”. Lurkers, here’s a good laugh, Wiki is now an official source of mormon doctrine (where du’s link would take you). ROTFLAICGU . . . . . Please du – provide us with proper mormon doctrine stating this claim eh?

Well, now you've said it, and I love how you dodge the question, cut off the quotation from being repeated, crude and ugly all will notice it now. I linked to Wiki for it's information on Lorenzo snow, not for the quote. here is the quote from an authoritative site. Happy?

now, do you agree with "God became man so that man might become god" as said by St. Athanasius of Alexandria or not?

Lurkers will also note – Athanasius was a main opponent of Arianism and was a Trinitarian of the Nicean era. Lurkers will also note the bile in du’s pages regarding how at this time the church apostatized and left the teachings of the original church. Yet du will cite one of these very same men who ‘lead’ this so-called apostasy as teaching the ‘true’ gospel. Please make up your mind du – is this guy’s teaching apostasy or truth?

Seldom will a man jump from complete knowledge to complete apostasy, usually, it takes generations. Besides, I am not quoting him to "bolster" my belief, I am posting his quotation as a point that your side once believed as I do, and has now changed (GALATIANS 1:6-10 comes to mind:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
I marvel at how resistant to the words of Christ are the antis of this forum!
They preach a Doctrine that is far from that preached by Paul, they twist and turn his words making a mockery of the very Bible the claim to revere.
Those who preach the Trinity are accursed of God. The cursing is one of blindness.
I speak to persuade men, I do not seek to please men, or I would join the anti's I seek to please God.
This scripture is why the nature of God was so vital that Satan had to corrupt it as soon as possible:
John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Lurkers, sharp minds that they are, will have noted that this is the same chapter quoted above about oneness and that the scripture speaks most clearly about a physical separation of God the father and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent.

With the Trinity in place, the deification of man becomes impossible, the understanding of our purpose on earth becomes clouded, many are lost.

With the Godhead restored, deification becomes obvious, our purpose here is clear, our resolve firm in keeping the commandments of God.

Here is a piece of logic, laying aside the Hellenistic belief that in order for anything to be omnipotent and omnipresent it had to be incorporeal... If being a spirit is so great, why did God curse us with corporeal bodies?

Another, If God is a spirit, what happened to Jesus' Body when he ascended to heaven, does he still have it or not? If not then resurrection is a lie, if he has it then God has a body.

God does not lie, therefore the interpretation of the Bible resulting in a God the Farther and a Jesus Christ who are one in substance and only a spirit is flawed.

Delph Mormons, teach the Gospel as it was taught by the apostles, interpreting the scriptures as the apostles did, continuing in their work, thus we are attacked and maligned by those who don't want our message heard.

GZ Lurkers will note – epic fail once again. The apostles didn’t take scripture out of context as mormon apologists do. Perhaps it is more appropriate to call the waaaaaaaambulance for this pitiful example of playing the victim card. But mormons don’t attack or malign Christians either – double standard again du?

"It ain't bragging if you can do it" -- Dizzy Dean

We do it. We also expect antis wherever we go, we are seldom disappointed. No waaaaambulance for me, I am not the one wounded.

Delph
269 posted on 11/29/2010 4:56:13 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: greyfoxx39
I'm sure you've noticed there are a WHOLE bunch of new names joining the Inmans in refudiating mormonism on this thread.

Yeah, I've noticed that since the imam's can't compete in ideas they call in the flying monkeys and try to win by attrition, it doesn't make what they are saying right, just voluminously wrong.

Delph
270 posted on 11/29/2010 4:59:16 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: svcw
Your accuracy in interpreting my words is matched only by the anti’s interpretations of the Bible on this thread.
271 posted on 11/29/2010 5:01:09 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: ejonesie22
Delph ejonsie, you need more?

ejonsieYes I do.

Well there has been ample evidence presented so far. if there are any lurkers still on this thread, I'm sure they get it. so here's a scripture:
Matthew 13:13
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


Delph
272 posted on 11/29/2010 5:07:25 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser
Well there has been ample evidence presented so far.

Hardly, and it is because I understand your game and that of the LDS in general that the information is inadequate.

You presnt on huckster who rooked the highest level of LDS "prophets" with their own game (real prophets would have seen that coming)but as far as I can tell is not active in any Ministry saving those from the lies of the LDS.

The others seem to be working in good faith and aside from your mention of them being taken on occasion by the same tricks that folled the great and mighty prophets there is no proof of these lies and such.

Of course when dealing with the smoke and mirrors of the LDS and all the spin on every issue, that line is hard to find anyways...

So again we need more...

273 posted on 11/29/2010 5:22:53 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Godzilla; Jim Robinson
Godzilla, if you are trying to intimidate me by pinging Jim Robinson to this, fail.

If you are honest, you will admit that last presidential election I was a Fred Thompson supporter and was frustrated that we never got to Discuss Mitt's so called conservative credentials because "the posse" always wanted to bash his religion.

I don't want Mitt as a president, although I'd take him or just about anybody over the current occupant.

I have never been shy about my opinion of Mitt, and I applaud the idea that we are going to actually vet conservative credentials and promote conservatives here.

My issue last election was that I couldn't get a word in edgewise about his conservative failings because every thread devolved to "Mormons aren't Christian" or "A Mormon presidency will legitimize Mormons" or some such drivel.

Jim, since Godzilla has bothered you on a religion thread, who do you like for the up coming race?

I'm not sure who I support yet, but I hope Sarah will be the VP because who ever she runs with the media almost won't "see" They will be so busy calling down lightning on her. Sadly, I don't think she can't do it as a headliner because the southern good ol' boy contingent won't vote for a female president.

Who ever we do get as our headliner, it'd be nice if they were as conservative as Sarah.

Delph
274 posted on 11/29/2010 5:24:13 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser

Just be content in knowing that if you try to push that abortionist/statist commiecare pushing bastard Mitt Romney on FR, you’ll get the zot!


275 posted on 11/29/2010 5:29:16 PM PST by Jim Robinson (Rebellion is brewing!! Nuke the corrupt commie bastards to HELL!!)
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To: DelphiUser; Jim Robinson

DU - you were the one complaining that romney didn’t get a fair shake because he was mormon - and in a not too polite manner referring to JR without pinging him on it. Deal with it


276 posted on 11/29/2010 6:12:22 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: DelphiUser
OK, so is there ever to be any evidence presented, or is it OK to just slander someone because they are Mormon, and dare to defend their faith?

Of COURSE not!

Only ANTI-mormons can be slandered!

Want some LINKS?

277 posted on 11/29/2010 6:14:57 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: DelphiUser
And I suppose you also judge the Catholic church by the Kenndys and Kerrys in their midst, the baptists by the Clintons....

We JUDGE MormonISM by it's FOUNDER and subsequent LEADERS, and the 'churchs' history.

Is THAT ok?

278 posted on 11/29/2010 6:16:56 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: DelphiUser
 
 I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person’s religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently, on the faults of other people’s religions, he is in a bad condition.

Ya want some bar-b-que sauce for that foot in your mouth?
 



  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!
 
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
 

279 posted on 11/29/2010 6:20:08 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: Saundra Duffy; delacoert; reaganaut
Saundra...another sin of yours to add to your confession list: Judging motives for the reason people put out information on Mormonism.

Do you know for a fact what each person's motivation is in this area?
If so? How? (Do you have a crystal ball, personal urim & thummim, or magic-8 ball that you got last Christmas?)
Haven't you ever seen the verse from 1 Sam. 16:7 -- that ONLY God can look at the inside heart of man...that we look at the outside.

Saundra, may I suggest you just get yourself out of the motive-judging business? (It's not very becoming to represent the broader Mormon community)

280 posted on 11/29/2010 6:21:29 PM PST by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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