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Joseph Smith Married Other Men's Wives: Would you share your spouse with the Prophet?
Rethinking Mormonism ^

Posted on 11/28/2010 11:46:07 AM PST by delacoert

Joseph Smith's Failed Proposals to Married Women

John Taylor's Wife, Leonora
"The Prophet went to the home of President Taylor, and said to him, 'Brother John, I WANT LEONORA.'" Taylor was stunned, but after walking the floor all night, the obedient elder said to Smith, "If GOD wants Leonora He can have her." Woodruff concluded: "That was all the prophet was after, to see where President Taylor stood in the matter, and said to him, Brother Taylor, I dont want your wife, I just wanted to know just where you stood."
- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, John Mills Whitaker Journal, Nov. 1 1890; emphasis in original

Heber C. Kimball's Wife, Vilate
“During the summer of 1841, shortly after Heber's return from England, he was introduced to the doctrine of plural marriage directly through a startling test-a sacrifice which shook his very being and challenged his faith to the ultimate. He had already sacrificed homes, possessions, friends, relatives, all worldly rewards, peace, and tranquility for the Restoration. Nothing was left to place on the altar save his life, his children, and his wife. Joseph demanded for himself what to Heber was the unthinkable, his Vilate. Totally crushed spiritually and emotionally, Heber touched neither food nor water for three days and three nights and continually sought confirmation and comfort from God." Finally, after "some kind of assurance," Heber took Vilate to the upper room of Joseph's store on Water Street. The Prophet wept at this act of faith, devotion, and obedience. Joseph had never intended to take Vilate. It was all a test."
- Biography of Heber C. Kimball, "Heber C. Kimball, Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer." By Stanley B. Kimball, page 93.

Orson Pratt's Wife, Sarah
"Sometime in late 1840 or early 1841, Joseph Smith confided to his friend that he was smitten by the "amiable and accomplished" Sarah Pratt and wanted her for "one of hisspiritual wives, for the Lord had given her to him as a special favor for his faithfulness" (emphasis in original). Shortly afterward, the two men took some of Bennett's sewing to Sarah's house. During the visit, as Bennett describes it, Joseph said, "Sister Pratt, the Lord has given you to me as one of my spiritual wives. I have the blessings of Jacob granted me, as God granted holy men of old, and as I have long looked upon you with favor, and an earnest desire of connubial bliss, I hope you will not repulse or deny me." "And is that the great secret that I am not to utter," Sarah replied. "Am I called upon to break the marriage covenant, and prove recreant to my lawful husband! I never will." She added, "I care not for the blessings of Jacob. I have one good husband, and that is enough for me." But according to Bennett, the Prophet was persistent. Finally Sarah angrily told him on a subsequent visit, "Joseph, if you ever attempt any thing of the kind with me again, I will make a full disclosure to Mr. Pratt on his return home. Depend upon it, I will certainly do it." "Sister Pratt," the Prophet responded, "I hope you will not expose me, for if I suffer, all must suffer; so do not expose me. Will you promise me that you will not do it?" "If you will never insult me again," Sarah replied, "I will not expose you unless strong circumstances should require it." "If you should tell," the Prophet added, "I will ruin your reputation, remember that."
(Article "Sarah M. Pratt" by Richard A. Van Wagoner, Dialogue, Vol.19, No.2, p.72. Also see: http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/spratt.htm)

William Law's Wife, Jane
"William Law, a former counselor in the First Presidency, wrote in his 13 May 1844 diary: "[Joseph] ha[s] lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and ha[s] found her a virtuous woman" The Laws elaborated on this in a public meeting shortly thereafter. "The Prophet had made dishonorable proposals to [my] wife . . . under cover of his asserted 'Revelation,' " Law stated. He further explained that Joseph came to the Law home in the middle of the night when William was absent and told Jane that "the Lord had commanded that he should take spiritual wives, to add to his glory." Law then called on his wife to corroborate what he had said. She did so and further explained that Joseph had "asked her to give him half her love; she was at liberty to keep the other half for her husband" Jane refused the Prophet, and according to William Law's 20 January 1887 letter to the Salt Lake Tribune, Smith then considered the couple apostates. "Jane had been speaking evil of him for a long time . . . slandered him, and lied about him without cause," Law reported Smith as saying. "My wife would not speak evil of . . . anyone . . . without cause," Law asserted. "Joseph is the liar and not she. That Smith admired and lusted after many men's wives and daughters, is a fact, but they could not help that. They or most of them considered his admiration an insult, and treated him with scorn. In return for this scorn, he generally managed to blacken their reputations--see the case of . . . Mrs. Pratt, a good, virtuous woman."
("Mormon Polygamy" by Richard S. Van Wagoner, page 44)

Hiram Kimball's wife, Sarah
Sarah M. Kimball, a prominent Nauvoo and Salt Lake City Relief Society leader was also approached by the Prophet in early 1842 despite her solid 1840 marriage to Hiram Kimball. Sarah later recalled that

Sarah Kimball, like Sarah Pratt, was committed to her husband, and refused the Prophet's invitation, asking that he "teach it to someone else." Although she kept the matter quiet, her husband and Smith evidently had difficulties over Smith's proposal. On 19 May 1842, at a Nauvoo City Council meeting, Smith jotted down and then "threw across the room" a revelation to Kimball which declared that "Hiram Kimball has been insinuating evil, and formulating evil opinions" against the Prophet, which if he does not desist from, he "shall be accursed." Sarah remained a lifetime member of the Church and a lifelong wife to Hiram Kimball. 
- "LDS Biographical Encyclopedia" By Elder Andrew Jensen, 6:232, 1887, Official History of the Church 5: 12-13,

Note: Although Joseph Smith did not take Hiram Kimball's wife as a plural wife, Smith later secretly married Hiram's fourteen-year-old daughter, Helen Mar Kimball. Read her story here: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm

Sidney Rigdon's daughter, Nancy
Read her story and Joseph Smith's explanation here

Joseph Smith's Successful Proposals to Married Women

Adam Lightner's wife, Mary
Mary Elizabeth Rollins, already married to non-Mormon Adam Lightner since 11 August 1835, was one of the first women to accept a polyandrous proposal from Joseph Smith. "He was commanded to take me for a wife," she wrote in a 21 November 1880 letter to Emmeline B. Wells. "I was his, before I came here," she added in an 8 February 1902 statement. Brigham Young secretly sealed the two in February 1842 when Mary was eight months pregnant with her son George Algernon Lightner. She lived with her real husband Adam Lightner until his death in Utah many years later. In her 1880 letter to Emmeline B. Wells, Mary explained: "I could tell you why I stayed with Mr. Lightner. Things the leaders of the Church do not know anything about. I did just as Joseph told me to do, as he knew what troubles I would have to contend with." She added on 23 January 1892 in a letter to John R. Young: "I could explain some things in regard to my living with Mr. L[ightner] after becoming the Wife of Another (Joseph Smith), which would throw light, on what now seems mysterious--and you would be perfectly satisfied with me. I write this; because I have heard that it had been commented on to my injury"
(Lightner, Mary E. Statement. 8 Feb. 1902; Lightner to Emmeline B. Wells, 21 Nov. 1880; Lightner to John R. Young, 25 Jan. 1892. George A. Smith Papers. Special Collections. University of Utah)

Orson Hyde's Wife, Marinda
Marinda Nancy Johnson, sister of Apostles Luke and Lyman Johnson, married Orson Hyde in 1834. A year before Hyde returned from Jerusalem in 1843, Marinda was sealed to Joseph Smith in April of 1842, though she lived with Orson until their divorce in 1870. Many suspect Joseph Smith was the actual father of Marinda's son Frank Henry who was born on 23 Jan 1845, for two reasons. First, because Marinda had been the polygamous wife of Smith since Apr 1842. Second, because Smith had sent her first husband, Orson Hyde, on a mission to Washington on April 4, 1844 "immediately" after a meeting with Joseph Smith (History of the Church, pg. 286). The gestation period for a human is on average 266 days (not 9 months), which would date the conception to early May 1844. Of course, 266 is an average date and the figures vary. To give you an idea of the range, only four percent of pregnancies are actually carried two weeks or more beyond the average time (Guttmacher, 1983). Frank Henry was born on January 23, 1845. Orson Hyde left for Washington April 4, 1844. The difference in these two dates is 294 days! That is almost a month longer than expected and is basically physiologically impossible, especially considering that Orson Hyde had not returned to Nauvoo until August 6, 1844.
(Andrew Jenson, Church Chronology, August 6, 1844) Marinda later divorced Orson Hyde and voiced her disgust of polygamy.

Windsor Lyon's Wife, Sylvia
Sylvia P. Sessions, married to Windsor P. Lyon, gave birth to a daughter on 8 February 1844, less than five months before Joseph Smith's martyrdom. That daughter, Josephine, related in a 24 February 1915 statement that prior to her mother's death in 1882 "she called me to her bedside and told me that her days on earth were about numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and all others but which she now desired to communicate to me." Josephine's mother told her she was "the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church."
(Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915)

Norman Buell's Wife, Prescindia
Prescindia D. Huntington, a faithful Mormon and married woman in Nauvoo, was also a polyandrous wife of Joseph Smith. Prescindia had married Norman Buell in 1827 and had two sons by him before joining Mormonism in 1836. She was secretly sealed to Joseph Smith by her brother Dimick on 11 December 1841, though she continued to live with her husband Buell until 1846, when she left him to marry Heber C. Kimball. In a "letter to my eldest grand-daughter living in 1880," she explained that Norman Buell had left the Church in 1839, but that "the Lord gave me strength to Stand alone & keep the faith amid heavy persecution." (Mormon Polygamy: A History" by Richard S. Van Wagoner, page 44)

Prescindia, who was Normal Buell's wife and simultaneously a "plural wife" of the Prophet Joseph Smith, said that she did not know whether her husband Norman "or the Prophet was the father of her son, Oliver." And a glance at a photo of Oliver shows a strong resemblance to Emma Smith's boys.
(Mary Ettie V. Smith, "Fifteen Years Among the Mormons", page 34; Fawn Brodie "No Man Knows My History" pages 301-302, 437-39)

Lucinda Morgan Harris, wife of Far West high councilor George Harris, admitted in 1842 that she had been Smith's "mistress since four years," and it is known that she visited Smith while he was incarcerated in Liberty Jail in 1838.

Henry Jacob's Wife, Zina
Prescindia's twenty-year-old sister Zina was living in the Joseph Smith home when Elder Henry B. Jacobs married her in March 1841. According to family records, when Zina and Henry asked Joseph Smith why he had not honored them by performing their marriage, Smith replied that "the Lord had made it known to him that [Zina] was to be his Celestial wife." Believing that "whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God's authorities bend to the reasoning of any man," the devout Elder Jacobs consented for six-months-pregnant Zina to be sealed to Joseph Smith 27 October 1841. Some have suggested that the Jacobs's marriage was "unhappy" and that the couple had separated before her sealing to Joseph Smith. But, though sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity, Zina continued her connubial relationship with her husband Henry Jacobs. On 2 February 1846, pregnant with Henry's second son, Zina was re-sealed by proxy to the murdered Joseph Smith and in that same session was “sealed for time" to Brigham Young. Faithful Henry B. Jacobs stood by as an official witness to both ceremonies.
("History of Henry Bailey Jacobs." By Ora J. Cannon, page 5-7. also see "Recollections of Zina D. Young" by Mary Brown Firmage)

Zina and Henry lived together as husband and wife until the Mormon pioneers reached Mt. Pisgah, Iowa. At this temporary stop on the pioneer trail, Brigham Young announced that "it was time for men who were walking in other men's shoes to step out of them. Brother Jacobs, the woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed up to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirit" (Hall 1853, 43-44). President Young then called Jacobs on a mission to England. Witnesses to his departure commented that he was so emotionally ill they had to "put him on a blanket and carry him to the boat to get him on his way".
("Short Sketch of the Life of Henry B. Jacobs" By Ora J. Cannon)

Henry returned from his mission and settled in California. But he was still in love with his wife Zina, now a plural wife of Brigham Young. Henry's letters to his wife Zina were heartrending. On 2 September 1852 he wrote: "O how happy I should be if I only could see you and the little children, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh." "I am unhappy," Henry lamented, "there is no peace for poor me, my pleasure is you, my comfort has vanished.... O Zina, can I ever, will I ever get you again, answer the question please." In an undated Valentine he added:

It was the rule rather than the exception for Smith to encourage a polyandrous wife to remain with her legal husband.
Faithful Mormon Joseph Kingsbury even wrote that he served as a surrogate husband for Joseph Smith:
 

Read Mormon apologist explanations for why Joseph Smith married other men's wives:
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf

Did Joseph Smith have sex with his wives?
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm

Did Joseph Smith emotionally blackmail these women into marriage?
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/angel_sword.htm

Read the detailed history of each of Joseph Smith's 33 plural wives in Todd Compton's excellent book In Sacred Loneliness.

For some details on the other married women Joseph married and impregnated, see: 
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org 
http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/polyg.htm
http://www.lds-mormon.com/isl.shtml
http://www.mormonismi.info/jamesdavid/menwives.htm

For more discussion on Mormon sexuality, see this on-line article:
Sexuality Within The Contemporary Mormon Experience


TOPICS: Other non-Christian
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; mormon
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To: Elsie

“The Joseph Smith Translation has restored some of the plain and precious things that have been lost from the Bible”

And you believe this?

The canon of the Bible was completed long before the 1800’s. Joseph Smith was too busy chasing other mens’ wives to understand Truth.


181 posted on 11/29/2010 11:35:31 AM PST by kingpins10
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To: Saundra Duffy

And you would be WRONG!


182 posted on 11/29/2010 12:00:21 PM PST by svcw (If you put a crouton on a your sundae instead of a cherry, it counts as a salad.)
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To: delacoert
Hey Saundra, again, with you permission...

The "letter written by Joseph smith" is suspected to have been forged by Mark Hoffman, you know, the guy who tried to destroy the church by becoming a professional forger, and when his scheme started to come undone, started blowing people up?

Well, one of his specialties was letters from Joseph to the Whitneys... The question is, did you know that, or not?

This "stuff" has been repeated, and refuted so many times, I just created a section of my page for it, here is a link Questions about polygamy Questions about polygamy typically fall into the following categories:
  1. Isn't polygamy forbidden by the Bible?
  2. Polygamy is icky.
  3. Polygamy is (or was) illegal.
  4. Isn't Polygamy adultery?
  5. Joseph Smith and Polygamy.
  6. Doesn't the Book of Mormon forbid polygamy?
  7. Polygamy is immoral.
  8. Polygamy Leads to other sins.
  9. Only a Mormon would promote polygamy.
Let's take them one at a time:

Isn't polygamy forbidden by the Bible?

Some assume that Adam was given one wife, therefore we all should only have one wife.

While this seems simple, it's just not valid, consider Adam's children with this logic: All of Adam's children married siblings, so this is how it was meant to be...

One makes sense, one does not according to our culture, the Adam only had one wife while true is a projection of our cultures values onto him If we say that is the only valid form of marriage, the Sibling marriage would be an equally valid projection from a culture that practices sibling marriage, and a projection from a polygamous culture would say that God married Adam to all the available women.

Projecting your values is not a valid form of determining what the scriptures say, or what God means by them.

Throughout the Old testament there are people living in polygamous marriages, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses. We only find out about their polygamy when it impacts "the story", never to reprimand them, thus it's valid to assume since these "men of God" were never reprimanded by God or it would be in the record, thus we can conclude that polygamy was not an issue for God, and God does not change...

Some claim that Jesus forbid polygamy, here let me give the Scriptures they use:
27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
I included the whole paragraph because since the Bible was originally written in paragraph form sometimes context is lost by just quoting a single scripture. Jesus comes out against Lusting and lasciviousness, he talks of removal of temptations, he then talks about Divorce, and how a divorced woman who remarries commits adultery.

This is a condemnation of the Serial polygamy (Multiple divorce and remarriage) that is commonly practiced today, but not a condemnation of the biblical polygamy where the marriage bonds stay intact, children keep their fathers, and the family unit instead of being destroyed is just expanded.

I have challenged theologians online many times and none can show me a scripture that forbids a man to have two, or more wives.
Polygamy is Icky.

This Objection to polygamy is basically one of Culture, eating some food is a delicacy in one culture, is "Icky" in another (Snails for example). Such "programmed" responses are sometimes impossible to overcome. There are instances recorded in history where people who refused to be rude and excuse themselves to go to the bathroom have actually ruptured their bladder and died from it. The idea that polygamy might actually be acceptable to God engenders similar unreasoning and unreasonable reaction from some people, if you are one of those people, don't read any further, it will just raise your blood pressure.
Polygamy Is or was Illegal

Polygamy was legal in most ancient cultures (Greek being an exception), Polygamy was made illegal at the Federal level of the United states by the Edmunds–Tucker Act in 1887, until then there was no federal level law, and only the laws of states must be considered. The Edmunds–Tucker Act was tied up for many years in the courts as the church tried to have it ruled unconstitutional. Illinois where the prophet Joseph lived granted Nauvoo a city charter that allowed it's governing body to decide if states laws applied there therefore Illinois Law cannot be used to determine if Polygamy was illegal in Nauvoo. Nauvoo had no laws against polygamy.

The American frontier has always had polygamy as part of it's history; The Indians had many Squaws (or wives) Mountain men often had Wives and Indian squaws it was not uncommon for white men to live with more than one wife. In modern literature and movies, Mormons are depicted as being the only ones with multiple wives, and that is accurate, we did, as frontier people live that aspect of God's law, but we were not the only ones.

Which brings us to the Law, which Law?

God has laws, and men have a laws. Polygamy is the lawful practice of having more than one wife, but according to who's law. If it's the law of the United states, Does the law make something moral?

Abortion is legal, but it's condemned in the Bible, so I think it's immoral. Polygamy is illegal, but it's approved of in the Bible, therefore I think it's moral. There are many in the US of A who believe that making something legal makes it moral, conservatives are not supposed to believe that. Conversely Conservatives should not believe that making something illegal makes it immoral.

When Joseph Smith and the Mormons were practicing it it was legal federally, locally, and Biblically.. Nauvoo had a charter that allowed the city to decide if such laws would apply to the city and when the Mormons first arrived in the Utah territory, the Edmunds–Tucker Act had not been passed yet, The passage of this law and it's support in the supreme court signaled the end of the church's practice of Polygamy in that the 12th Article of faith requires the church to keep all the laws of the land and so the First official Declaration of the church was issued by the prophet, which contains the following:
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.
Thus, the church is not now or will it be, while it is against the law of the land, promoting active practice of polygamy.
Isn't Polygamy Adultery?

Polygamy is not Adultery. Polygamy, or in this case more accurately polygyny, is the practice of multiple wives in a marriage, Adultery is sex out side of marriage. Therefore sex in a polygamous marriage is not adultery.

Some anti's will inevitably point out that the marriage has to be "legal", (see Polygamy is (or was) Illegal).

If a marriage (between the persons in question) is in force, Sex between those within that marriage covenant cannot legitimately be called adultery.
Joseph Smith and Polygamy

This topic has a lot of Sub questions:

Q: Didn't Joseph just create polygamy because he was a sex fiend?
A: If you start from "he was a bad man" you will inevitably end up with yes; If you start with he was a prophet of God you will inevitably end up with no; if you start with an open mind you have to find out if he was a prophet, see Putting our religion to "the test".

Q: Didn't Joseph marry other men's wives?
A: The short answer is yes, the long answer is no. Clear? I didn't think so this is why anti Mormons love to bring this up. Communication then was not as good or immediate as it is now, often a woman's husband would be gone for years and she would have assumed he was dead, Joseph or one of the other men in the church would marry these women so they could take care of them (women being unable to own property, enemies of the church would try to seize their land). There were also women who wanted to be sealed for all time and eternity to a worthy male, but their husband was not worthy, they could not, some of these women were also "married" to worthy men in the church, however, these women continued to live with their current husbands for the rest of their lives because the marriage was only for eternity, not for mortality. this makes for a very confusing mess, and for competing claims with some of these women believing that since they were married to Joseph, any child they bore was his (biology was apparently not a frontier strong suit), thus we are left with these competing claims. There is no proof that Joseph fathered a single child from these women. Allegations that he did abound among the anti Mormons, and among some who want to be descended from him. However, Genetic studies performed on all who claim to be his descendants have proven to be negatives for all his wives but Emma.

Q: Did Joseph Smith marry any fourteen year old girls?
A: True, a fourteen year old woman was considered a marriageable age, boys were considered men at the age of twelve and often left home to seek their fortunes by 14. Joseph also married a 57 year old widow.

Q: Didn't Joseph (or the church) teach that you had to practice polygamy in order to be saved?
A: No, less than 1% of the church ever practiced polygamy, the church does teach that marriage is required in order to obtain the Highest degree of glory in heaven, and the principle of polygamy has to be accepted, not the practice. (the principle being that it's valid as it was in the bible).

Q: Didn't Joseph marry women against their will?
A: No, there were women like Helen Mar Kimball who were pressured to marry Joseph by their family, but arranged marriages were also common then and the fact of arrangement by someone else means pressure from outside the individual.

If there is a question which should be added here, Please FM me.
Doesn't the Book of Mormon Forbid polygamy?

Actually this is a very good point, Mormons believe in a Book called the Book of Mormon which has the strongest passage speaking out against polygamy than any other passage of scripture I know of. The Passage is in:
Jacob 2:
23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.
WOW Pretty strong stuff huh? If that was in the Bible, unrefuted by the Bible elsewhere, well I wouldn't be writing this section I would not be defending polygamy as biblical.

Why does it matter where it's from? Well, if the Book of Mormon is scripture, then Joseph Smith is a prophet, if Joseph Smith is not a prophet then who cares what he wrote?

This is circular logic by Anti Mormons, "Since Joseph Smith speaks for God he violated God's word which he wrote when he said God said something else later, thus he is not a Prophet of God. (God does not change, God does change what he is saying based on the People he is talking to, Nineveh anyone?, Jesus fulfilling the law of Moses? (an eternal covenant) there's more, but I hope you get the point.

You should also ask what is this whoredom Being condemned in Jacob? What is a Whoredom?

Simply put it is lewd and lustful behavior, Polygamy as practiced by Abraham and Jacob and Moses is never described as being lewd. David and Solomon however had lots of "stuff" going on that would fit into the red light districts of some towns. Polygamy is not to be practiced like a whore house.

There is a principle which is if God has to command us not to do something, he will do so in excess so there is no excuse. like the law of Moses was stricter than was needed before Moses, and since Christ. Here are a few examples of this from Mormon Scriptures as well: D&C 58:26
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
D&C 89:1-3
1 A Word OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
The Word of Wisdom (section 89 of the D&C) was originally given as a suggestion, not a command, when the "saints" widely ignored it, it became a commandment (as it is for members of the church today).

So if you don't listen to suggestions, God will command and be stricter then the suggestion so everyone will know where the "line" is so people can't say they didn't know.

In the book of Jacob, the men were marrying, having a fling and divorcing the women later. many were doing this to punish their earlier wives and others with lewd intent. This lewd and lascivious behavior is against God's will and so he forbid them to practice polygamy completely.

Joseph told the church this was not the Lord's will for our day. and if he was a prophet, he was speaking for God, if not, he was speaking for himself. What people need to do is find out if Joseph was a prophet or not in oder to know if Jacob 2 matters or not.
Polygamy is Immoral

Morality today for most Americans is determined by the Bible. The Bible has no prohibition on polygamy, indeed, the many important prophets had multiple wives. (Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob) and in at least one instance God says he (God) gave multiple wives as a blessing (to David).

The bible does have specific disapproval of Divorce and remarriage, or serial polygamy which is widely practiced in America today.
Polygamy leads to other sins

This is nothing more than religious guilt by association. The logic is simple: I knew a man who read the Bible and he beat his wife... (conclusion reading the Bible makes you beat your wife...)

you may laugh but I had this exact, well it was in chinese, but translated story from a Buddhist man we tried to teach in Taiwan.

Does polygamy practiced they way it was in the bible eliminate all sin? No, but neither does marriage, does a monogamous marriage eliminate all sin? again no. We are all sinners.

To suggest that a behavior which was practiced by many righteous men in the OT and many early Christians as well is not Biblical is just denial of reality.
Only a Mormon would promote polygamy

Really, there are tons of "non Mormon" polygamy sites that are striving to point to reality, here are a few: (2520)
  1. Love that Works FAQ
  2. TheologyWeb - Is polygamy truly unBiblical?
  3. Tertullian - Ante Nicene - Admits that polygamy was commanded by god in the OT, says not anymore though.
  4. FIFTEEN OBJECTIONS TO POLYGAMY ANSWERED
Do I agree with all the reasoning here? No, but it's not just Mormons who are saying Polygamy is Biblical.

Here is a page by Mormons on the early "Church Fathers" and their views on Polygamy

Some Quotes:
Tertullian
As I think, moreover, each pronouncement and arrangement is (the act) of one and the same God; who did then indeed, in the beginning, send forth a sowing of the race by an indulgent laxity granted to the reins of connubial alliances, until the world should be replenished, until the material of the new discipline should attain to forwardness: now, however, at the extreme boundaries of the times, has checked (the command) which He had sent out, and recalled the indulgence which He had granted; not without a reasonable ground for the extension (of that indulgence) in the beginning, and the limitation of it in the end. (Tertullian, " Exhortation to Chastity," (6) Ante-Nicene Fathers 6:53–54)

Tertullian's perspective is strikingly similar to Jac. 2:30, in which monogamy is the norm, but God may command exceptions to "raise up seed."
Justin Martyr
Justin Martyr argued that David's sin was only in the matter of Uriah's wife, and echoed a common early Christian idea that marriage was a "mystery," or sacred rite of the type which Latter-day Saints associate with temple worship:

And this one fall of David, in the matter of Uriah's wife, proves, sirs, " I said, "that the patriarchs had many wives, not to commit fornication, but that a certain dispensation and all mysteries might be accomplished by them; since, if it were allowable to take any wife, or as many wives as one chooses, and how he chooses, which the men of your nation do over all the earth, wherever they sojourn, or wherever they have been sent, taking women under the name of marriage, much more would David have been permitted to do this.Dialogue With Trypho (141) Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:270)

Justin saw the patriarchs' marriages not as corruptions or something which God 'winked at,' but acts with significant ritual and religious power.
Augustine
Even Augustine, a towering figure in Christian theology, held that polygamy was not something that was a crime before God, but rather a matter that depended more upon cultural biases:

Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the [secular] laws forbid it. (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: Series 1 (Augustine and Chrysostome) (Vol. 1–14) (New York: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1886–1889), 4:288)
And one of my favorites from another site: Martin Luther
"I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter." (De Wette II, 459, ibid., pp. 329-330.)
The Bible approves of Polygamy. It's a fact one arrived at by any who actuality study it as these great men have.

Here is the formula for anyone who wants to test it:
A) Great men in the Bible were polygamous and they were specifically approved of by God while polygamous. (Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob...)
B) Nowhere in the Bible is anyone reprimanded or commanded not to have more than one wife.
C) God approved of Polygamy then, since he does not change, it's not a big issue for him now.
Serial polygamy with divorce and remarriage is however specifically condemned by Jesus.

My conclusion is that Polygamy is not condemned by the Bible, and I'm in good "Christian" company in that opinion. Note that While there are many direct descendants of Joseph smith, all are from Emma, the other wives had children, after Joseph's death by their new husbands, so they were not sterile, the only reasonable conclusion is that Joseph never had carnal relations with them. I'm sure you'll find another explanation...

My father once told me, "You cannot change the mind with logic that was made up without the use thereof."

Delph
183 posted on 11/29/2010 12:09:00 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser

Posts like this take a LONG time to scroll past on a phone...just sayin’.


184 posted on 11/29/2010 12:14:37 PM PST by Windcatcher (Obama is a COMMUNIST and the MSM is his armband-wearing propaganda machine.)
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To: reaganaut

Oh, I forgot about Harry Reid! Yes, there are people who think they are Christian if they are not Jewish. Very sad. But truly saved Christians are infused with the Holy Spirit, and CANNOT be dishonest, lie, or do harm to the innocent. If a person does these things, he or she is not truly Christian.
It IS good news if people are having the scales removed from their spiritual eyes! We are charged with the great commission, and time is growing short!


185 posted on 11/29/2010 12:21:12 PM PST by Paperdoll ( On the cutting edge)
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To: Utah Binger

Wat y’all got agin’ little kitties?


186 posted on 11/29/2010 12:28:04 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: Tamar1973

“Jesus Christ was NOT created by the Father. “

Wow! So you don’t believe in the Virgin Birth? You don’t believe that Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost? When Jesus refers to Heavenly Father as His Father, you don’t believe it? You don’t believe Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father?

I used to be confused about the Trinity - when I was told that it’s a mystery or that it’s like an egg, the shell, the yolk and the white. The word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible but is a man-made concept which has led to such confusion.

I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I am not confused.


187 posted on 11/29/2010 12:30:25 PM PST by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: DelphiUser
 
God bless you all with his love and with his truth.

 
Amen!
 
2 Corinthians 11:14-15
 14.  And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 15.  It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
 
Galatians 1:7-10
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”  
 


 
If one believes the Bible is correct, then, by that Standard, Mormonism fails the test.
 
 
If, however, you are convinced that the Bible is either in error, been corrupted or mis-interpreted, then you are free to believe whatever you wish.
 
 
 
 

188 posted on 11/29/2010 12:32:21 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: svcw

“Jesus is eternal NOT created”

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, just as He said.


189 posted on 11/29/2010 12:32:21 PM PST by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: SENTINEL

Well, we certainly do not want Romney in the WhiteHouse! But the great commission should be paramount to those of us who have surrendered our lives to the only begotten son of God, Jesus Christ. As you well know, He loves those whose names are written in the Book of Life. It is sad the the old adage, “you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink” describes way too many of us.


190 posted on 11/29/2010 12:34:18 PM PST by Paperdoll ( On the cutting edge)
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To: DelphiUser
4. Lie. No marriages happen in heaven, we do believe that marital relationships started here on earth continue in heaven, including all the polygamous ones by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and other prophets from the Bible who were polygamous.

DECEIVED!

ROMANs specifically says that the LAW of marriage is ONLY for this earth!

Romans 7:2
King James Bible For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.

191 posted on 11/29/2010 12:35:09 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: DelphiUser
Mormons, teach the Gospel as it was taught by the apostles, interpreting the scriptures as the apostles did, continuing in their work, thus we are attacked and maligned by those who don't want our message heard.

Oh?

Then WHY do we post SO MUCH or LDS, Inc.'s own writings and teachings?

We DEFINITELY want your 'message' to be heard!

LOUD & CLEAR!

192 posted on 11/29/2010 12:36:57 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: DelphiUser
Mormons, teach the Gospel as it was taught by the apostles, interpreting the scriptures as the apostles did, continuing in their work, thus we are attacked and maligned by those who don't want our message heard.

While FR rules say that I cannot call you a liar directly; I will point out the FACT that this statement is untrue.

193 posted on 11/29/2010 12:38:32 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: DelphiUser
I have a page that answers most of the "charges leveled against Mormons here (hence there is no excuse for the continuing misstatements made by those opposed to us here).

And as a Flying Inman in good standing (I is; ain't I boys and girls?), I highly recommend that lurkers to go and READ your links to see if the 'answers' given there are satisfactory to them.


(Scopolamine is effective against dizziness)

194 posted on 11/29/2010 12:42:12 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: kingpins10
And you believe this?

I can't speak for ELSIE; but I sure does!  

 
 The Telestial Kingdom is where people, who do believe in Moroni, think folks who don't believe in Moroni, are going...)

195 posted on 11/29/2010 12:49:00 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: Saundra Duffy
Wow! So you don’t believe in the Virgin Birth? You don’t believe that Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost? When Jesus refers to Heavenly Father as His Father, you don’t believe it? You don’t believe Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father? I used to be confused about the Trinity - when I was told that it’s a mystery or that it’s like an egg, the shell, the yolk and the white. The word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible but is a man-made concept which has led to such confusion.

The trinity is not confusion, it is the truth, even though the word "trintiy" is not in the bible, either is the word "incarnation" yet most Christians believe in the incarnation.

John chapter 1:1-14 tells us that Jesus was the active agent in creation and that He pre-existed before anything was created, just as God the Father pre-existed before anything. When Jesus called Himself, "I am" he was claiming the same pre-existence that God the Father possesses and was claiming full and complete equality with God the Father.

Lucifer did not and never will be that. He was created just like the other angels and everything else were created: by the hand of Jesus Himself. That is why Christians know that Jesus and Lucifer/Satan are not brothers or equals in any way, shape or form.

196 posted on 11/29/2010 12:49:08 PM PST by Tamar1973 (Germans in 1932 thought they were voting for change too.)
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To: DelphiUser
 
My father once told me, "You cannot change the mind with logic that was made up without the use thereof."

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages,
which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort,
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws,
and to use my influence with the members of the Church
over which I preside to have them do likewise.
 
Wilford Woodruff

President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 
September 24th, 1890
 
Members of the LDS, Inc. church, based in Salt Lake City, are spineless; as they are more AFRAID of the US Gov't than their GOD!
 


THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
 
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
 
, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 
 
  58 Now, as touching the law of the a, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
  59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was a, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that b me, and I have endowed him with the c of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit d, and I will justify him.
  60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
  61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse a, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
  62 And if he have a virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
  63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to a and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be b.
  64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
  65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take a to wife.
  66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

197 posted on 11/29/2010 12:55:35 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: DelphiUser
 
My conclusion is that Polygamy is not condemned by the Bible, and I'm in good "Christian" company in that opinion.
 
Then it appears that you and your 'company' are in DISAGREEMENT with Scripture!
 

 

 1 Timothy 3:2-3
 2.  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
 3.  not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
 
1 Timothy 3:12
   A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
 
 
 Titus 1:6
   An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.


Or even HERE:
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 2
 
  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
 

198 posted on 11/29/2010 12:59:40 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: Windcatcher

On a PHONE!?

You ARE a glutton for punishment!

;^)


199 posted on 11/29/2010 1:00:39 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: Elsie

Charlie’s Angels?


200 posted on 11/29/2010 1:02:56 PM PST by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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