You forgot the "Jesus' name is on our buildings" part.
I once had an old Dodge Dart with a 426 emblem on the side.
Posted on 11/27/2010 11:33:46 AM PST by delacoert
I have wrestled with the matter of whether or not to put these pages on-line. LDS are pretty defensive about this approach, which seems like a direct attack. But the Bible does warn us to “beware” of false prophets. This info is useful in obeying that command. Further, everyone knows the standard “testimony” of Mormons relates to their confidence in the church, the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith. Yet, none of those who tell me these things have ever put Smith to God’s Biblical test for a prophet. We are told in Deut. 18:20-22 how to test a prophet. It says that if “the thing” prophesied does not come to pass, then we are not to fear (or revere as a prophet) such a person. Note that it doesn’t say “the things”...but limits the test to any ONE prophecy. With that in mind, let us look at SEVERAL of the prophecies of Joseph Smith. The fact is that a list of over 55 (false) prophecies of Joseph Smith has been compiled by former LDS Elder, Dick Baer, who printed it up to demonstrate to his friends and family why he was leaving the church. Here are some of them: Lyman Johnson Vol. 3:20 I wish to acknowledge that Joseph Smith did give one true prophecy as follows: “For although a man may have many revelations and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he BOASTS in his own strength and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must FALL and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.” (D & C 3:4, emphasis added) Joseph Smith did boast in his own strength - that he had done more than even Jesus Christ (D H C 6:408-409). This boast was made in May of 1844. In June of 1844 Joseph Smith did fall (dead), not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he killed two and wounded one (Comprehensive History of the Church, pp. 284-285). He died not as a sheep going to slaughter, but as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. “Beware of false prophets”
enemies. But in the History of the Church, Vol. 3, pages XXXIX and following is described the utter FAILURE of Zion's camp to avenge anyone of anything! God's OWN presence (vs. 19) supposedly went with them...but the
whole thing failed!
very disappointed at not having gotten any treasure, as they did not interpret the use of the word "you" in the revelation to mean some OTHER people in some OTHER century.
Luke Johnson - Vol. 2:528
William McLellin - Vol. 3:31
William Smith - Vol. 7:483
Thomas Marsh - Vol. 4:284
Your analysis is better than mine. It’s not lack of critical thinking; it’s the God-sized void in all of us. If it’s not filled by the True God, the Father of Lies is more than happy to fill it with a false one. Very sad.
Your analysis is better than mine. It’s not lack of critical thinking; it’s the God-sized void in all of us. If it’s not filled by the True God, the Father of Lies is more than happy to fill it with a false one. Very sad.
Our Relationship with the Lord
"True and saving worship is found only among those who know the truth about God and the Godhead and who understand the true relationship men should have with each member of that Eternal Presidency.
It follows that the devil would rather spread false doctrine about God and the Godhead, and induce false feelings with reference to any one of them, than almost any other thing he could do. The creeds of Christendom illustrate perfectly what Lucifer wants so-called Christian people to believe about Deity in order to be damned.
These creeds codify what Jeremiah calls the lies about God (see Jeremiah 16:19; 23: 14–32). They say he is unknown, uncreated, and incomprehensible. They say he is a spirit, without body, parts, or passions. They say he is everywhere and nowhere in particular present, that he fills the immensity of space and yet dwells in the hearts of men, and that he is an immaterial, incorporeal nothingness. They say he is one-god-in-three, and three-gods-in-one who neither hears, nor sees, nor speaks. Some even say he is dead, which he might as well be if their descriptions identify his being.
These concepts summarize the chief and greatest heresy of Christendom. Truly the most grievous and evil heresy ever imposed on an erring and wayward Christianity is their creedal concept about God and the Godhead! But none of this troubles us very much. God has revealed himself to us in this day even as he did to the prophets of old.
We know thereby that he is a personal Being in whose image man was made. We know that he has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; that he is a resurrected, glorified, and perfected Being; and that he lives in the family unit. We know that we are his spirit children; that he endowed us with the divine gift of agency; and that he ordained the laws whereby we might advance and progress and become like him.
We know that God is the only supreme and independent Being in whom all fullness and perfection dwell and that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and, by the power of his Spirit, omnipresent.
We know "the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son" (D&C 20:21), as the scriptures attest, to ransom man from the temporal and spiritual death brought into the world by the fall of Adam and to put into operation all of the terms and conditions of the Father's plan.
We know that the Holy Ghost, as a "personage of Spirit," is both a Revelator and a Sanctifier and that his chief mission is to bear record of the Father and the Son.
Thus there are, in the Eternal Godhead, three persons--God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the Testator. These three are one--one God if you will--in purposes, in powers, and in perfections. But each has his own severable work to perform, and mankind has a defined and known and specific relationship to each one of them. It is of these relationships that we shall now speak.
-SNIP-
Note it, please, the Lord Jesus worked out his own salvation while in this mortal probation by going from grace to grace, until, having overcome the world and being raised in immortal glory, he became like the Father in the full, complete, and eternal sense."
McConkie gives a very good example of the difference between Christians and mormonism in this speech.
Ah...
The classics...
This is the best ever objective and scholarly article written about Mormonism and Christianity, ever! It takes a careful and thoughtful read to appreciate the relationship between Mormonism and Christianity.
This is the best ever scholarly and thoughtful article written about the relationship between Mormonism and Christianity. It takes a careful and thoughtful read to appreciate.
http://www.irr.org/mit/neuhaus.html
As clearly stated as mcconkie made it - mormons will be quick to toss him under the bus for exposing the ‘meat’ of their religion by saying it was just his ‘opinion’. Convenient cop-out.
This objective and scholarly article demolishes Mormonism as having even a pretense to Christianity.
How educated people can embrace this faith is beyond belief.
http://www.irr.org/mit/neuhaus.html
The neuhaus article is a good one. I agree, 9 different versions of the 'first vision', using a 'peep' (seer) stone from his treasure hunting/swindling days to 'translate' the gold plates, marries over a dozen women all the while preaching as church DOCTRINE monogamy, false prophecies all over the place - yes it is unreal that educated people would believe this.
“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.
Remember there are many brilliant and well educated Atheists...
Your screenname answers your question!
You forgot the "Jesus' name is on our buildings" part.
I once had an old Dodge Dart with a 426 emblem on the side.
I am pleased to offer my services for the Betterment of Mankind.
Please feel free to ask me ANYTHING and I'll sincerely post my link list again.
Remember...
I am normal too; and I am a MORMON!
Sincerely,
PD
"My response" lacks BALLS!
Show us PROPAGANDA!
Sigh. I really would just like to know the thinking process that lets them gloss over this.
You rang?
"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."
Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)
"Always keep your eye on the President of the church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the lord will bless you for it but you don't need to worry. The lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray."
LDS President Marion G. Romney (of the first presidency), quoting LDS President (and prophet) Heber J. Grant "Conference Report" Oct. 1960 p. 78
"The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother's arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 289, 1862.
--N. Eldon Tanner, in August Ensign 1979, pages 2-3
"I sat in this tabernacle some years ago as President Joseph Fielding Smith stood at this pulpit. It was the general priesthood meeting of April 1972, the last general conference before President Smith passed away. He said: 'There is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, or the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the lord'."
L. Aldin Porter of the Presidency of the First Quorum of Seventies (Ensign, Nov. 1994, p. 63)
"Follow your leaders who have been duly ordained and have been publicly sustained, and you will not be led astray."
Boyd K. Packer (General Conference, Oct. 1992; Ensign, Nov. 1992)
"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray."
President Wilford Woodruff (considered scripture as it is canonized at the end of the D&C)
Sigh. I really would just like to know the thinking process that lets them gloss over this.
You rang?
"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."
Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)
"Always keep your eye on the President of the church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the lord will bless you for it but you don't need to worry. The lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray."
LDS President Marion G. Romney (of the first presidency), quoting LDS President (and prophet) Heber J. Grant "Conference Report" Oct. 1960 p. 78
"The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother's arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 289, 1862.
--N. Eldon Tanner, in August Ensign 1979, pages 2-3
"I sat in this tabernacle some years ago as President Joseph Fielding Smith stood at this pulpit. It was the general priesthood meeting of April 1972, the last general conference before President Smith passed away. He said: 'There is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, or the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the lord'."
L. Aldin Porter of the Presidency of the First Quorum of Seventies (Ensign, Nov. 1994, p. 63)
"Follow your leaders who have been duly ordained and have been publicly sustained, and you will not be led astray."
Boyd K. Packer (General Conference, Oct. 1992; Ensign, Nov. 1992)
"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray."
President Wilford Woodruff (considered scripture as it is canonized at the end of the D&C)
As clearly stated as mcconkie made it - mormons will be quick to toss him under the bus for exposing the ‘meat’ of their religion by saying it was just his ‘opinion’. Convenient cop-out.
In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)
The neuhaus article is a good one. I agree, 9 different versions of the 'first vision', using a 'peep' (seer) stone from his treasure hunting/swindling days to 'translate' the gold plates, marries over a dozen women all the while preaching as church DOCTRINE monogamy, false prophecies all over the place - yes it is unreal that educated people would believe this.
"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."---Joseph Knight's journal.
"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.
"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.
In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:
"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."
"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)
In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12June 15, 1879, pp. 190-91.)
Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"("A New Witness for Christ in America,"Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)
"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.
Hey Dude, RAISE YOURSELF UP FROM THE GRAVE IN THREE DAYS and then we'll compare notes.
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