Posted on 11/23/2010 12:14:36 AM PST by Cronos
What is irritating for a person like me who looks for facts is that MacArthur is twisting his — and giving half-truths or putting two facts side by side and making co-relations between them when there is none. What a loon.
Amen! I do not care for his conclusions either.
Having watched different Christian fads wax and wane over my lifetime, pentecostalism is one of them.
I *TRY* to be charitable toward the man McArthur. And, to be honest, *SOME* of his teaching is not bad—though I’m hard pressed to think about what topic.
However, his hostility to God’s miracle working power in this desperately wicked era is borderline blasphemy against Holy Spirit. That’s not a small thing.
I’m far from impressed with his rubber pseudo-logic about such things. I also don’t think his attacks on Billy Graham are warranted.
Graham is so scrupulous that if he got on an elevator going up or down 8 floors alone, and a woman got on 4 floors later, he’d get off at the floor the woman got on.
Anyway—I know a lot of Calvinists revere him as a wonderously great teacher. Yet, to me, he trashes so much of the New Testament in crucial areas, I just can’t respect much of his teachings at all. He does have the horse sense to be a Dispensationalist. LOL.
And, he’s not lukewarm.
Thanks for your kind reply, Bro.
Yes, groups like McArthur’s and Gresham’s are long overdue to die out
I agree with you.
There may be some topics upon which I either disagree or feel John MacArthur exposes some wrong thinking, I also know that in his ministry, he does well present the Gospel to his flock.
Nonsense.
Tell that to South America, Asia, Africa, Russia. It's essentially the only flavor of Christianity growing by leaps and bounds.
That is partly because such folks living so close to the nitty gritty of demonized life around them and in their families can't afford the frozen chosen variety of Christianity.
They MUST have THE POWER OF GOD *WITHOUT* THE FORM OF GODLINESS THAT DENIES THE POWER THEREOF. They must see the power to be delivered from demonic forces and healed of their diseases. They are keenly acquainted with the powerless RELIGION *called* Christianity and want no more to do with it.
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6-9These are the kind of people who smooth-talk themselves into the homes of unstable and needy women and take advantage of them; women who, depressed by their sinfulness, take up with every new religious fad that calls itself "truth." They get exploited every time and never really learn. These men are like those old Egyptian frauds Jannes and Jambres, who challenged Moses. They were rejects from the faith, twisted in their thinking, defying truth itself. But nothing will come of these latest impostors. Everyone will see through them, just as people saw through that Egyptian hoax. --THE MSG .
2For men will be (B)lovers of self, (C)lovers of money, (D)boastful, (E)arrogant, (F)revilers, (G)disobedient to parents, (H)ungrateful, (I)unholy, 3(J)unloving, irreconcilable, (K)malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, (L)haters of good, 4(M)treacherous, (N)reckless, (O)conceited, (P)lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to a form of (Q)godliness, although they have (R)denied its power; (S)Avoid such men as these. 6For among them are those who (T)enter into households and captivate (U)weak women weighed down with sins, led on by (V)various impulses, 7always learning and never able to (W)come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Just as (X)Jannes and Jambres (Y)opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, (Z)men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9But they will not make further progress; for their (AA)folly will be obvious to all, just (AB)as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also. 10Now you (AC)followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, (AD)love, perseverance, 11(AE)persecutions, and (AF)sufferings, such as happened to me at (AG)Antioch, at (AH)Iconium and at (AI)Lystra; what (AJ)persecutions I endured, and out of them all (AK)the Lord rescued me! 12Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus (AL)will be persecuted. 13But evil men and impostors (AM)will proceed from bad to worse, (AN)deceiving and being deceived. 14You, however, (AO)continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that (AP)from childhood you have known (AQ)the sacred writings which are able to (AR)give you the wisdom that leads to (AS)salvation through faith which is in (AT)Christ Jesus. 16(AU)All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that (AV)the man of God may be adequate, (AW)equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3 (New King James Version)
2 Timothy 3
Perilous Times and Perilous Men
1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.The Man of God and the Word of God
10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.2 Timothy 3 (The Message)
2 Timothy 3
Difficult Times Ahead
1-5Don't be naive. There are difficult times ahead. As the end approaches, people are going to be self-absorbed, money-hungry, self-promoting, stuck-up, profane, contemptuous of parents, crude, coarse, dog-eat-dog, unbending, slanderers, impulsively wild, savage, cynical, treacherous, ruthless, bloated windbags, addicted to lust, and allergic to God. They'll make a show of religion, but behind the scenes they're animals. Stay clear of these people. 2 Timothy 3 (New American Standard Bible)
2 Timothy 3
"Difficult Times Will Come"
1But realize this, that (A)in the last days difficult times will come.
Furthermore, Scripture is rather clear--this END TIMES era will be seeing an escalation of God's miracle working power and demonstrations of HIS POWER FOR HIS GLORY. Prophecies will increase and miracle demonstrations will increase.
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Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
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Matthew 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
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Matthew 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
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Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
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Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
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Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
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14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
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Luke 1:17
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
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Luke 4:32
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.
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Luke 4:36
And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.
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Luke 5:17
And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was present to heal them.
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Luke 10:19
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
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Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
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Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
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Acts 4:7
And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?
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Acts 4:33
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
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Acts 6:8
And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
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Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
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Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
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Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
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37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
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Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
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Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
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Romans 15:13
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
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Romans 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
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1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
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1 Corinthians 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
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1 Corinthians 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
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1 Corinthians 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
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1 Corinthians 4:19
But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
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1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
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1 Corinthians 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
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1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
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1 Corinthians 15:43
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
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2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
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2 Corinthians 6:7
By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
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2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
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2 Corinthians 13:4
For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
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2 Corinthians 13:10
Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.
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Ephesians 1:19
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
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Ephesians 1:21
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
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Ephesians 3:7
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
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Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
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Ephesians 3:20
Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
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Ephesians 6:10
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
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Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
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Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
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Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
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Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
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Colossians 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
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Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
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1 Thessalonians 1:5
For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
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2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
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2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
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2 Timothy 1:8
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
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Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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Hebrews 7:16
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
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1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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2 Peter 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
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Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
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Revelation 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
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Revelation 11:6
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
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Revelation 13:14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
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Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
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Do you REALLY THINK that the God who brought Israel through the red sea and drowned the Pharoah therein, is going to pull His punches and closet HIS POWER during the most dramatic time in all of history past or future--the culmination of all things leading to the literal trouncing of all evil at Armageddon? What an UNBIBLICAL< IDIOTIC idea!
The dark is getting darker and the light is getting lighter--and that includes Holy Spirit's raising up a standard against the darkness that is increasingly coming in like a flood.
God has always had a people and HE WILL HAVE A REMNANT in this era closing history as we have known it.
He's NOT about to allow the enemy all the bells, whistles, drama and demonstrations of power. NOT BY A LONG SHOT.What a looney notion that He would.
It was interesting compiling this list of Scriptures. I've read the NT and listened to it MANY times. Yet, I, as a Pentecostal keenly appreciative of the POWER OF HIS SPIRIT in the modern era was somewhat shocked to see how MANY verses there are about the POWER of God operative in the church age, in the NT.
If, I, as a Pentecostal was surprised . . . I wonder at how much the non-Pentecostals just gloss over those verses, never giving that word a gnat's burp's worth of attention or respect for what God is saying to Believers with that word in SO MANY Scriptures.
True. True.
Thanks for your kind reply.
Pentecostalism is not what I think of when I think of faith in the power of the Holy Spirit and of the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to Christians within the Church, dividing severally as He wills.
Pentecostalism in the dictionary of common usage is a form of Christianity that relies on overwraught emotionalism and the manipulation of that emotionalism.
Shoot at me if you like, Quix, but there is a distinction between the power of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost and that branch of Christianity known as pentecostalism. They aren’t the same.
I’d rather you remain in good health while such silly notions of yours bite the dust wholesale.
The best Pentecostal/Charismatic churches I’ve been a part of and/or aware of have been indistinguishable from Acts 2.
imho, Your biases are a poor foundation for or description of truth.
It is also a brazenly erroneous notion that Non-Pentecostal groups AVOID emotional manipulations; ritual manipulations; group-think manipulations; !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! OF MAN manipulations; bias manipulations; pseudo-tidy-box manipulations etc.
EVERY congregation I’ve ever visited or observed up close—including Pentecostal, Lutheran, So Bap, Episcopal etc. demonstrated some such emotional and other manipulations to some greater or lesser degree. Some were outragrously worse than the worst of Pentecostalism.
It’s just that the labels, white wash and models of such are different.
Love your neighbor.
Wow! I just cut and paste in my notes. Great verses. May I say powerful points literally pointed out. No pun intended. I know this from experience. When I have met occultist I know this power or anointing Christ gave us for protection from the enemy. I am going to also check Young’s Literal translation just to learn more on these same verses. Thanks! Praise Jesus!
***The best Pentecostal/Charismatic churches I’ve been a part of and/or aware of have been indistinguishable from Acts 2.**
You mean the preacher preaches in his common language and the foreigners in the audience hears in their own language?
How does that work with the Spanish and Navajo non English speakers?
If a Pentecostal Navajo spoke in his own language would you hear in English? That is what happened in Acts 2.
Which type of Pentecostal are you? Trinitarian or Oneness (Jesus Only) Pentecostal? Each claims the “only true” pentecostal church even though both claim to speak in “tongues”, and the Oneness Penecostals claim that if you are not ONENESS you are not saved.
Thank you for your further insights.
What I gather from your posts- in one aspect of several- is that stepping out and engaging in glossolalia is perhaps a way to petition God by letting Him know that you do not have the vocabulary to express your feelings and- perhaps- speaking in this way indicates your helplessness in expressing much like an infant has no way to communicate in ordinary language- and thus an act of humility in that it shows our utter dependence upon God. If this is correct- in a sense it’s not much different than kneeling or prostrating to communicate our condition. Paradoxically however- it seems to fit within your definition of a ritual.
I can’t say I have a problem with it if done with this attitude- and not performed like a Pharisee- nor required to prove some level of spirituality.
Perhaps one of the worst forms of manipulation and control is that of the Cultural Christian kind that crosses denominational lines thinking that a form of morality enacted through legislation will produce a regenerate nation.
Thank you so much for keeping me so well informed and feeling still part of the group, Quix. God bless you richly with power (sometimes the greatest example of which is humility - e.g., Jesus on the cross).
Please let me know what you discover about the
. . . ‘gibberish’ . . . vs . . . bona fide earthly languages . . . in the original.
I’ve read commentaries all over the waterfront.
Yeah. That’s rather accurate, I think.
As to ritual . . . I suppose one could say brushing one’s teeth is a ritual.
I don’t think we’d say that breathing is a ritual.
I don’t think we’d say communicating with our spouses, friends and kids is a ritual—hopefully.
Praying in tongues is more like the latter two, for me. I’d feel exceedingly bereft of a robust way to communicate deep inner stuff and even routine stuff in a satisfyingly thorough way, without tongues.
I certainly agree about the pharisee aspect. And so have all the better pastors I’ve known.
Paul said
“I THANK GOD I SPEAK IN TONGUES MORE THAN YOU ALL”
for at lease a reason or two.
It was NOT a BAD reason.
He said “Forbid not to speak in tonuges” for a reason.
Naysayers tend to behave and talk as though those verses were not in the Bible for the New Testament Church age/era/dispensation.
INDEED.
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