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SHOULD A BAPTIST CHURCH EMBRACE PENTECOSTALISM?
PB Ministries ^ | 20-Oct-2010 | Laurence A Justice

Posted on 11/23/2010 12:14:36 AM PST by Cronos

Right now there are churches in almost every country which call themselves Baptists on the sign out front who, nevertheless, arc not Baptists, but in reality are Pentecostal churches.

....Pentecostalism is the belief that the miraculous gifts or signs which the Lord gave to the Apostles and others in the early churches have not ceased, but are still available and are still being exercised by today’s Christians. Pentecostalism claims that God still gives these miraculous gifts to men today. Lists of these gifts can be found in Mark 16:17-18 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-11.

..God’s extraordinary gifts are called this in contrast to those He ordinarily gives in all ages. They are ordinarily not given, but rather were given on extraordinary occasions. These extraordinary gifts were supernatural gifts that enabled their possessors to perform supernatural deeds. Usually when Pentecostals today speak of the gifts or the charismata, they are speaking of these extraordinary gifts, that is, healing, miracles, tongues, direct revelations from God, casting out demons. Pentecostalism teaches that these miraculous gifts, these charismata, are still available to Christians today

(Excerpt) Read more at pbministries.org ...


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: baptist; freformed; pentecostal
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To: 1000 silverlings; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; ...
Plenty true.

However, Holy Spirit very rarely speaks as thunder from Heaven directly.

And in this church era . . . He chooses to use very flawed humans . . . maybe because there's no other kind available and He's not doing much 3-years-wilderness-back-side-of-the-desert-training-sessions with most of us.

So
. . .
DOING LIFE

DOING CHURCH

TOGETHER

IS

MESSY.

UNALTERABLY SO.

And that jangles us OCD [Obsessive Compulsive Disorder] folks a lot until we let go of our OCD junk.

I'm skeptical that the best of Christian Congregational life will be otherwise than MESSY this side of Christ's return.

The challenge is, will we demonstrate loving God foremost and others as ourselves in the midst of the confusing messiness? . . . . or not?

Personally, I believe God's design is in this.

This state of affairs insures that at least the wiser, those with an authentic heart seeking God and His Highest--will always be throwing themselves on God's mercy and seeking His face to sort out their daily life decisions and actions.

It seems to me, that's a HIGH PRIORITY TO GOD. He knows, that training us to do so is vital for our security, our health, our safety, our righteousness, our eternal lives and reigning with Christ.

If things were more tidy and less complex, folks would resort EVEN MORE THAN THEY DO, to ritualized pretend tidy little boxed behaviors and rituals as substitutes for RELATIONSHIP with God.

The complex, sometimes confusing DANCE requires that those of us who follow our LEAD, are always intensely attentive to HIS slight nudges, directions, glances of His eye.

HE LIKES THAT.

HE KNOWS OUR LIVES MUST HAVE THAT FOCUS for our survival and health.

We delude ourselves when we think that Proddy traditions and our unique personal or IN-GROUP comfort zones = righteousness and authentic Christianity.

261 posted on 11/25/2010 12:26:57 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: grey_whiskers

INDEED.

Has always been so.

Yet, God has also always rewarded the heart seadfastly and energetically after Him, focused joyously on Him.

He also affirmed David’s giving the shewbread to his famished troops.

Again . . . God is holy.

He is NOT prissy.


262 posted on 11/25/2010 12:28:42 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

You are likely technically more correct than not.

Nevertheless, a big part of me suspects that had you been looking on that day, a significant part of you might have tsk tsk’d at David, too.

You make it sound like the cheeky wife had absolutely no cause to have her attitude . . . as in no trigger, no excuse.

I don’t think THAT’s true, from the Scriptural evidence.

imho, there’s a point to the Scripture and not just about her attitude.

I think one of the points is that ABANDONING TO GOD is something that demonstrates our DELIGHT

IN HIM

and that He is still committed to giving the desires of our hearts to those of us who DELIGHT IN HIM—EVEN OUTRAGEOUSLY.

Maybe particularly OUTRAGEOUSLY DELIGHTING IN HIM.


263 posted on 11/25/2010 12:32:30 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

God never sanitizes Scripture.

God never whitewashed the lives of the great men of God.

We don’t need to either.


264 posted on 11/25/2010 12:33:26 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
?

Reporting what the bible says, in the original Hebrew, is not "whitewashing" the life of a great man. In fact, a bible reader understands that men of the bible are greatly flawed and David and his line, are among the worst. The whole lesson of Uzzah is that God doesn't need men to protect Him.

A comprehensive understanding of the whole bible, extending even into our times, will tell you that the tribe of Saul considered and still does, David a usurper of Saul's throne. The death of Saul's sons by David's supporters never went down well with them.

Michal was a princess in Saul's court -- the bible says she loved David and the bible says she despised him at times. It isn't a big leap to understand she was torn between two royal families and was only human. Yet, even so, she spoke against God's annointed and suffered for it, much like Miriam who spoke against Moses. there were consequences.

265 posted on 11/25/2010 12:50:17 PM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Those are all certainly important points, imho.

Thx.


266 posted on 11/25/2010 12:54:17 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix; Cronos

Happy Thanksgiving, Gentlemen.

Quix, I believe you gave a fairly balanced analysis of the faults on both sides of the issue.

As a non-Pentecostal, as I look in on Pentecostal services, I get the impression that many Pentecostals are like drug addicts needing to get their next high on the Holy Spirit.

But as you rightly point out, human logic can take us only so far and at some point we need to submit to the fact that God will act as he freely chooses.

Yet I’m still left to ponder the unanswered question. If the Holy Spirit is sovereign in administering the gift what is to be accomplished by practicing gibberish? Wouldn’t the act come upon someone, with their permission, soley initiated by the HS? If the language is heavenly language how would the person know the sounds they are practicing are in fact heavenly sounds as opposed to some other nefarious sounds without first having an experience of heavenly sounds?


267 posted on 11/25/2010 10:00:14 PM PST by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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To: the_conscience; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; ...
Thanks for your kind response.

I just wrote a good response and then after previewing closed the window without sending. Silly me. GRRR.

Yes, many Pentecostals can be like such a drug addict. Just as many non-Pentecostals can be like a drug addict going through the forms and rituals of the frozen chosen services.

RE:

Yet I’m still left to ponder the unanswered question. If the Holy Spirit is sovereign in administering the gift what is to be accomplished by practicing gibberish?

Let me ask you: Pretend you are Holy Spirit. Just how would you go about facilitating the human believer availing their language muscles to Holy Spirit's influence? . . . particularly out of the blue?

Let's make it a bit more dramatic . . . let's say that you as a human are in Thailand about to board a bus with your new adopted Thai daughter of about age 7 . . . who knows not a shred of English. And you can see in the crowd around you a frightful situation arising--also with some folks already on the arriving bus. The situation is complex and you desperately need to communicate IN THAI to your new daughter about how to escape the arising situation.

Would you be better able to trust Holy Spirit to speak Thai through you miraculously having been praying in "gibberish" for years?

or

Having never dared to be remotely anything hinting of that close to such nonsense?

What better training program would you implement as Holy Spirit to prepare human Believers or transition human Believers to flowing with Holy Spirit in a linguistic dance of communication together?

Wouldn’t the act come upon someone, with their permission, soley initiated by the HS?

Actually, exactly that DOES happen more than occasionally. But not a great deal more than occasionally.

It seems to be much more common that Holy Spirit REQUIRES the very humbling act of stepping out of the boat in faith by demonstrating the foolishness of praying/speaking in 'gibberish.'

THEN He affirms it immediately with "Holy Spirit goosebumps" or some other more tangible, experiential confirmation--perhaps someone nearby affirming by Holy Spirit's knowledge your concern in prayer in tongues. Or maybe even someone interpreting with your specific thoughts as you were praying 'in gibberish.'

If the language is heavenly language how would the person know the sounds they are practicing are in fact heavenly sounds as opposed to some other nefarious sounds without first having an experience of heavenly sounds?

Personally, I don't think that's an issue.

1. Do you really think that Holy Spirit would have difficulty facilitating Heavenly language even thouth it sounded like gibberish both to the speaker and human listeners? I don't think Holy Spirit has the least even hint of a challenge in doing so.

2. I don't think it matters. My faith is that Holy Spirit conveys the perfect longings of the heart to accompany the sounds--in conveying the heart/spirit prayer of the human to God--more or less regardless of what sounds are uttered.

3. When I was so low as to hardly be able to hold my head up and certainly not even to pray in tongues, I lay there groaning, in great anguish--sometimes barely audible groans. Yet, I had a confidence that Holy Spirit was conveying a perfect prayer to accompany my groans.

4. Praying in tongues/gibberish/glossalalia certainly has the improvement of a SENSATION of language communication with varying cadence, tones, emphases. It really FEELS like LANGUAGE communication--heart to heart--human-spirit to God-Spirit. That's a wonderful Christian comfort, aid, facilitation to dialogue with God.

I don't know that I've best recreated my original post but it's probably as well as I can manage at this hour. Thanks for your questions and tone. God's best to you this weekend.

268 posted on 11/25/2010 11:18:38 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

it’s incredible how one can actually share one’s faith when there aren’t disrupting influences around. I wish you well Quix on your journey in Christ and Happy Thanksgiving.


269 posted on 11/26/2010 1:05:24 AM PST by Cronos (Matt 24:13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved)
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To: Quix

To elaborate more on the introvert bit — God has a place for those who like to celebrate His word in different ways. The key is to have balance through all of these — we must read, celebrate in silence as well as joy. There is a time for everything...


270 posted on 11/26/2010 2:23:35 AM PST by Cronos (Matt 24:13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved)
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To: Cronos

Thanks for your 2 posts. I much agree.

May your weekend be blessed with richness in relationships in Christ.


271 posted on 11/26/2010 7:07:49 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Cronos; Quix; 1000 silverlings

***well, I prefer to give Ruy the benefit of doubt that he did not compare Pentecostal/Charismatic worship to the worship of Hanuman***

I was just showing that so called “tongues” are prevalent in many heathern religions and can not be used as a sign of true spirituality.

The ancient Atis worshipers got in the spirit and cut off important body parts in their rites, and the voodooists really get into the “spirit” and allow spirits to posess them.
Put a cross there and replace the drums with guitars or pianos and can anyone really tell the difference between Penticostals and voodooists? (especially when they bring out the rattlesnakes!)

Like I said earlier, I would rather keep control of myself than open the door to “ten demons worse than the first” into my body.

Oh by the way, Matthew Henry’s Commentary (and the Geneva Bible commentary) says the tongues in Chorinthians were “foreign languages”.


272 posted on 11/26/2010 9:45:47 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: Quix

Thank you so very much, dear brother in Christ!


273 posted on 11/26/2010 8:15:36 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cronos

Here’s a thread on tongues at ATS.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread115583/pg1


274 posted on 11/26/2010 9:07:45 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ...

Here’s Nighline’s treatment of speaking in tongues . . . including some research on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbQBajYnEc


275 posted on 11/26/2010 10:03:15 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
This was an interesting take by Dr. John MacArthur. MacArthur on "Speaking in Tongues"
276 posted on 11/26/2010 10:26:15 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums; Quix
Who is this MacArthur? He seems to be comparing the Pentecostal speaking in tongues to the tower of Babel and to babbling in tongues among pagan Zulus and other pagans.

He says that they misconstrued spiritual gifts and that they had left the entire mass of satanic systems into church

Finally he says that they are an entire confused amalgamation of confusion and error.

This guy is quite a propagandist.
277 posted on 11/26/2010 11:23:17 PM PST by Cronos (Matt 24:13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved)
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To: boatbums

McArthur has always been off the wall wrong and unBiblical about tongues etc.

I have no respect for the man’s teachings because of his idiocies about these topics.

One of his leaders is married to a former Pentecostal pastor of mine’s sisters.


278 posted on 11/27/2010 12:03:36 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: boatbums; Quix
This guy is really friendly, he says glossalia is a pagan gobbledygook and gibberish. He goes on with his comparison of pentecostal talking in tongues to pagan worship to say that this is Eros, the desire for ecstasy and is an erotic religion holding orgies.

Your link has this guy saying
"Now I'm afraid that what has happened today in the charismatic movement is just a reproduction of what happened in Corinth. Because of years of ignorance of the true work of the Holy Spirit and because of a lack of a really fine Bible teaching in many places... people begin to reach out and to want to feel God and to sense reality and Satan's counterfeit came flooding in the door and what happened now in the charismatic movement is simply Corinth revisited. We have developed a sensual, erotic approach to religion, only we call it the work of the Holy Spirit when it is the counterfeit of Satan. If you were to find a time to talk to various people who have experienced this, their experiences have been very sensual, very feeling oriented...
And he seems to have a problem with the culture of pentecost.

This guy seems to be an Evangelical. Wikipedia describes him as
MacArthur is a dispensationalist and Calvinist,

Regarding eternal security, he states, "It should never be presented merely as a matter of being once saved, always saved--with no regard for what you believe or do. The writer of Hebrews 12:14 states frankly that only those who continue living holy lives will enter the Lord's presence."

279 posted on 11/27/2010 12:15:23 AM PST by Cronos (Matt 24:13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved)
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To: boatbums; Quix

And John MacArthur also goes on to makes a few lies and even attacks Billy Graham (and here I thought Mr. Graham was respected by all Evangelicals)


280 posted on 11/27/2010 12:25:27 AM PST by Cronos (Matt 24:13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved)
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