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Why I Am Catholic: For Purgatory, Thank Heavens (Ecumenical)
WhyIAmCatholic.bloogspot.com ^ | November 2010 | Frank Weathers

Posted on 11/21/2010 5:37:58 PM PST by Salvation

For Purgatory, Thank Heavens

—Feast of All Souls
When I was straddling the fence on whether or not I should become a Catholic, I never had a problem with Purgatory. It just makes the most sense to me.

I'll admit that I thought I would have a big problem with it at first. Because, you see, it isn't mentioned specifically in the Bible (along with about a million other details). But where did all the people who died go, for example from the Old Testament times? Assuming that all the people who had died before the Incarnation were just, ahem—out of luck, is ridiculous to me. And that was before I knew the doctrine of purgatory very well.

I just ran a quick search over at the handy-dandy YIMCatholic Bookshelf of the word "purgatory" and came back with references to 175 different books. You'll find everything from St. Catherine of Genoa's Treatise on Purgatory (only 67 pages, so give it a look) to the Manual of the Purgatorian Society.

Below are some thoughts I want to share with you from an American named John L. Stoddard. Back in 1922, Stoddard wrote Rebuilding A Lost Faith, By An American Agnostic. It's 246 pages of top-notch conversion story.  But I'm only going to share Stoddard's thoughts on Purgatory with you because in many ways, they mirror my own path to understanding this doctrine. Like Stoddard, the crux of the matter for me hinges on authority. Either you believe that, heads, the Church has the authority to teach this doctrine or, tails (like Martin Luther), you don't. Guess which side of this coin I side with?

I'll let Stoddard take it from here,

From Chapter XV, Purgatory and Indulgences

THE difficulty in regard to Papal Infallibility (See chapter XIV) having been overcome, I turned to consider the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the Sacrament of Penance. My feelings in respect to this will best be shown by the following extract from a letter which I wrote about this time to a Catholic friend.

"My Dear Francis:

"I find no special difficulty in the Catholic dogma of Purgatory. On the contrary, the idea of a state of purification, appointed Jor those souls who, though redeemed by Christ, are nevertheless still unprepared to pass at once into God's presence, appears to me logical and even comforting. I think that every soul who feels his own unfitness for the Beatific Vision (and who does not feel this?) must wish for such a state of preparation, even though attended with a cleansing punishment. The lack of this idea in Protestantism leads, I think, to an objectionable feature in their system,—namely, the altogether improbable and presumptuous supposition that the soul of some monster of depravity can straightway enter the society of heaven, provided only that he says, at the last moment of his ill-spent life, that he repents and believes in Jesus as the Son of God. Christ's Divine insight into the soul of the penitent thief, who hung beside His cross on Calvary, could justify, of course, His promise to him of an immediate entrance into Paradise; but that was a solitary instance, upon which one can hardly build much hope.

The statement, often loosely made, that, since 'Jesus paid it all, all the debt I owe,' a hardened criminal is thereby rendered instantaneously fit for Heaven, is dangerously demoralising. The Bible assures us that 'there shall in no wise enter into the heavenly City of God anything that defileth, or that is defiled,' and the acquisition of a pure character is not the affair of a moment by means of a death-bed repentance. I never shall forget the description in a Chicago paper, many years ago, of the hanging of a negro, who, on the night before his execution, was said to have repented of a peculiarly atrocious crime, and 'knew that he was saved.' The report was heralded by the flaring headline 'Jerked to Jesus!'

This blasphemous alliteration probably did less harm, however, than the sensational story, which accompanied it, of the negro's 'edifying remarks' which preceded his death. The idea of such a wretch going at once to Heaven was revolting to a sense of justice and even of decency. No Catholic would have supposed such a translation probable, or, save for a miracle, possible. We know, of course, nothing of what the purgatorial state may be, through which the soul must pass, to reach the sphere to which God calls it; but that some place of purification must exist for those who pass into eternity with no sufficient spiritual preparation, appears to me just, necessary and consoling."

To this my friend replied as follows:—

I well remember the crudely blasphemous headline which you quote. It had a great success, and was accounted 'clever,' though I am sure its ribald, vulgar character shocked all in whom a consciousness of the dignity of life and of the majesty of death remained, even though they had no positive Christian faith. There is little, if any, analogy between the case of the wretched negro and that of the penitent thief, for the latter was redeemed by his humility and faith. He did not 'know that he was saved.' He confessed his guilt in a supreme moment, and admitted the justice of his punishment. Whether or not the grace given him by our Lord was the only one ever offered him, we are not told; but to this opportunity at least he did respond, and by a single aspiration expiated with his dying breath a life of crime.

That the consoling doctrine of Purgatory should appeal to you does not surprise me. There is hardly a religious system of antiquity in which some similar provision is not found. It was left for the 'Reformers' of the sixteenth century to reject this immemorial dogma of the Church. When they denied the sanctity of the Mass and many other sacramental features of Catholicism, the doctrine of Purgatory went with the rest. If the souls of the dead pass instantly into an eternally fixed state, beyond the efficacy of our intercessions, then all our requiems, prayers and similar practices are vain. But if, on the contrary, we believe in the Communion of Saints,—that is, in the intercommunion of the three-fold Church,—militant on earth, suffering in Purgatory, and triumphant in Heaven,—then we on earth can influence, and be influenced by, the souls who have crossed the border.

Few, indeed, quit this life in a state of purity and grace which warrants their immediate entrance into Heaven. Still fewer, let us hope, are those to whom the blessed refuge of Purgatory,— that half-way house of our dead,— is closed. I cannot conceive how Protestants can believe as they do on this point, nor is it astonishing that their rejection of Purgatory has been followed, in the case of many, by the elimination of a belief in Hell; for the latter doctrine, taken alone, is monstrous. In fact, all Catholic doctrines are interdependent; they stand or fall together. You cannot pick stones out of the arch, and expect it to stand, for it will not do so. Purgatory is one of the most humane and beautiful conceptions imaginable. How many mothers' aching hearts has it not soothed and comforted with hope for some dead, wayward son!


Soon after receiving this letter, I read the following words from Mallock:—"As to the doctrine of Purgatory, time goes on, and the view men take of it is changing. It is fast becoming recognised, that it is the only doctrine that can bring a belief in future rewards and punishments into anything like accordance with our notions of what is just and reasonable; and so far from its being a superfluous superstition, it will be seen to be just what is demanded at once by reason and morality." My attention was at this time also called to the fact that the idea of Purgatory is no longer confined exclusively to Roman Catholic Christians. At a recent General Convention of Episcopalians in America resolutions looking towards prayer for the dead were defeated by only a very small majority.

The doctrine of the Catholic Church in reference to Purgatory states that there is such a place, in which souls suffer for a time, before they can be admitted to the joys of Heaven, because they still need to be cleansed from certain venial sins, infirmities and faults, or still have to discharge the temporal punishment due to mortal sins, which is as yet uncancelled, though the lasting punishment of those sins has been forgiven and removed through Christ's atonement. Furthermore, the Church declares, that by our prayers and by the acceptable sacrifice of the Mass we may still help those souls, through the merits of Christ.

Beyond this statement the Church's formal doctrine does not go; but it is not an article of Catholic faith that there is in Purgatory any material fire. It is generally believed that souls in Purgatory suffer spiritual anguish from the fact that they then feel acutely, as they could not do on earth, the perfect happiness from which they are for a time excluded, while they must also understand the enormity of the sins which they committed against their Heavenly Father and their Savior.

The entire story is here.

*****

What follows now are a few thoughts from Saint, and Doctor of the Church, Alphonsus Liguori, on our duty to pray for the faithful departed souls in Purgatory. This is from the Introduction to the Manual of the Purgatorian Society. With a book title like that, it's got to be good!

The practice of recommending to God the souls in Purgatory, that He may mitigate the great pains which they suffer, and that He may soon bring them to His glory, is most pleasing to the Lord and most profitable to us. For these blessed souls are His eternal spouses, and most grateful are they to those who obtain their deliverance from prison, or even a mitigation of their torments. When, therefore, they arrive in Heaven, they will be sure to remember all who have prayed for them. It is a pious belief that God manifests to them our prayers in their behalf, that they may also pray for us.

It is true these blessed souls are not in a state to pray for themselves, because they are so to speak, criminals atoning for their faults. However, because they are very dear to God, they can pray for us, and obtain for us, the divine graces. St. Catherine of Bologna, when she wished to obtain any grace, had recourse to the souls in Purgatory, and her prayers were heard immediately. She declared that, by praying to those holy souls she obtained many favors which she had sought through the intercession of the saints without obtaining them. The graces which devout persons are said to have received through the holy souls are innumerable.

But, if we wish for the aid of their prayers, it is just, it is even a duty, to relieve them by our suffrages. I say it is even a duty; for Christian charity commands us to relieve our neighbors who stand in need of our assistance. But who among all our neighbors have so great need of our help as those holy prisoners? They are continually in that fire which torments more severely than any earthly fire. They are deprived of the sight of God, a torment far more excruciating than all other pains.

Let us reflect that among these suffering souls are parents, or brothers, or relatives and friends, who look to us for succor. Let us remember, moreover, that being in the condition of debtors for their sins, they cannot assist themselves. This thought should urge us forward to relieve them to the best of our ability. By assisting them we shall not only give great pleasure to God, but will acquire also great merit for ourselves.

And, in return for our suffrages, these blessed souls will not neglect to obtain for us many graces from God, but particularly the grace of eternal life. I hold for certain that a soul delivered from Purgatory by the suffrages of a Christian, when she enters paradise, will not fail to say to God: "Lord, do not suffer to be lost that person who has liberated me from the prison of Purgatory, and has brought me to the enjoyment of Thy glory sooner than I have deserved.


For all the answers on Purgatory (and on Indulgences) that you want to know, but are afraid to ask, click on the hotlinks you just passed over. You'll be glad you did.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: allsouls; catholic; catholiclist; purgatory
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To: Kolokotronis

Well, give us a hint. I’d say “uncreated.” I am bold in my folly because I trust God to set me straight through His servants.


81 posted on 11/22/2010 12:40:09 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

you need to read all of chapter 3 of 2 Corinthians. The context of the piece is growing in the Lord (while alive) - sanctification, not about glorification. The person who lives with their focus on Jesus is what they are talking about, and how by doing this they are transformed from one level of glory to a higher level of glory, which is what the sanctification process (aka living our life as a Christian as best we can) does.

2 Corinthians 5:8 is validation enough that God completes our sanctification for us instantly when we die and our race is over: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” The prior two verses 5:6-7 provide the context that validates this point of view.


82 posted on 11/22/2010 12:56:12 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Mad Dawg

“Well, give us a hint. I’d say “uncreated.”

Very Good; your early training, evincing, no doubt, a pre-Council of Whitby phronema, has stood you in good stead, MD! Don’t tell the Dominicans! The Inquisition, as we all know, could be anywhere and is always unexpected.


83 posted on 11/22/2010 1:07:08 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis

The way to handle the Inquisition is to make sure you are one of the Inquisitors. Why do you think I joined the family, uh, I mean, order?


84 posted on 11/22/2010 1:53:37 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Cronos
The STATE of purgatory answers the question -- nearly all of us, no matter how holy, are still unworthy at the time of our death to be in the presence of (note, just about being the presence of , nothing to do with our salvation which was already won by Christ) God

You are incorrect. Christ's salvation was sufficient. There is nothing we can do to purify ourselves - purgatory or otherwise. The only remedy is what Christ did on the cross. Purgatory is a theory invented by men. It may or may not exist. Only God knows. I have no problem with discussions like this but they are in a theoretical abstract realm and are not based on scripture.

85 posted on 11/22/2010 4:50:35 PM PST by plain talk
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To: starlifter

Are you kidding me? What a lame answer and a total logical fallacy. I could support any false doctrine I wanted using that logic. The Bible speaks nothing of purgatory because it was a money making deal for the Church and is totally un-biblical.


86 posted on 11/22/2010 6:07:30 PM PST by sigzero
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To: sigzero
Ecumenical thread? Manners?

The doctrine of Purgatory was being developed long before any dope thought of trying to sell indulgences, BTW.

Aquinas wisely says that to use the Scripture in argument against, say, the Muslims, makes no sense because Muslims do not hold the Scripture to be authoritative.

Similarly, we find in Scripture grounds to trust the Sacred Tradition of the Church. Of course others don't. But those who don't will teach little and learn less if their response to an approach to Scripture different from theirs is just to scoff.

87 posted on 11/22/2010 7:09:57 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Secret Agent Man; Kolokotronis
The wonderful thing about Blackberries is that though I was away from home, I was able to read both Chap 3 and chap 5 in my spare time. This is great technology.

Just running things up the flagpole here: The first thing is that your construction is certainly that of the Mr. Dix who wrote "Alleluia, Sing to Jesus." The relevant line is "changed from glory//Into glory// 'Til in heav'n we see thy face ..."

And if by "validate" you mean "are consistent with" then certainly both chapters are consistent with a view that the 'dynamic' stops with death. But they do not require it, since they are, under that construction, silent about what happens at the point of death or thereafter.

What we laughingly refer to as my "thought", is based as much on jokes as on anything else. And early in life I read the joke about the physics graduate student whose wife asked him how the week had gone. "It was fabulous!" he said, "Everything we learned last week is wrong!"

I see my life here with God as, among other things, every more complete and detailed information on what a bozo I am am, and an ever more refined and urgent sense of how wonderful God is and how wonderfully He meets my defects and needs. "Everything I learned last week is wrong!"

Now, I hold that heaven is perfect bliss, is "behold[ing His] face". We are creatures and will never see perfectly. But we can always see better than we did. Think of asymptotes.

Or take another image entirely. Maybe you don't drink beer. Please believe me when I say that after a day of sailing or a day of hard labor in the earth, NOTHING on EARTH can compare to that moment when the beer hits your parched throat! Trust me on this.

Of course, the next gulp is not so wonderful because your thirst already is somewhat quenched. But holy men and women have assured us through the ages that the closer one is to God, the more one desires to be even closer. That's why Psalm 63 is an important one for us Catholics, important for celebrations. We celebrate our thirst because we believe that the increase in thirst is an indication of its being slaked.

So, one metaphor I like to use for heaven is the infinite prolongation of that first gulp, an ever-increasing desire always and forever met with precisely the right gratification of that desire: each gulp more thirsted for than the last, and each thirst more perfectly satisfied.

And how could such ever increasing union with God NOT be accompanied with an ever increasing splendor? So I see "changed from glory into [greater] glory" proceeding forever and ever.

Your mileage may vary.

My alleged point is that while many see a great seam between purgatory and heaven, I do not. As a creature, I can always be improved, always be made more and more like Him who made me, and I will never be exactly and completely like. As I am happy to go to physical therapy because it is to restore the strength which I never should have lost, so I am happy to enter more fully into the stream of Grace which will make me ever more like Him who made me.

If I am corrupt and impure gold, I will leap happily into the refining fire, and thank Him who kindled it and blew it white hot for my good.

88 posted on 11/22/2010 7:41:59 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: plain talk
There is nothing we can do to purify ourselves - purgatory or otherwise.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I could be wrong. But at least I believe that, however it comes to me, any purification at all that I may undergo is by the merits, grace, and love of Christ, certainly not by me. I cannot bootstrap myself into purity.

89 posted on 11/22/2010 7:46:27 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: starlifter

1) Those who believed GOD and followed His laws went to Paradise, or Abrahams Bosom as Jesus said.

2) Those alive who have not heard of Jesus will be judged by what they were able to know of him from the things that are made on earth and in the heavens. Read Romans Ch. 1.
God and Jesus are able to keep those who are faithful to him, even if they have not directly heard of Jesus, which is actually very few today.


90 posted on 11/22/2010 8:58:35 PM PST by coincheck (Time is Short, Salvation is for Today)
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To: Salvation

I do not want to argue. Just saying that the Bible says nothing about a place called purgatory, it is definately not there. To take verses out of context and make a doctrine of it is wrong. This is a tradition in the CC. As is many of the things they believe, just traditions. The CC makes these traditions as authoratative as scripture just as the Pharisees in Jesus time did.


91 posted on 11/22/2010 9:07:18 PM PST by coincheck (Time is Short, Salvation is for Today)
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To: coincheck

You are aware that in three places the Bible says that not everything is written down, aren’t you.

Thus, we have the traditions — not as you interpret them, but the stories handed down from the apostles to the next bishops and so forth.

We aren’t talking about ceremonies, etc. here, but stories that were not written down in the Bible but were handed down person to person to person to person.


92 posted on 11/22/2010 9:19:49 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Mad Dawg

Well I do appreciate the good conversation about this we’ve had through the thread.

I will agrere it’s hard for us right now to really know what it feels like to be in heaven, in God’s presence, to be made perfect and complete. I also think it’s probably silly to try to even talk about the finishing process in terms of time as we know it today, because those who are now “in eternity” are outside of time, as they are with God in Heaven.

But the bottom line for me, anyway, is that I know when I die, after I have run the race here, however far I get in this process of sanctification, God will complete the good work He began in me and I will be made perfect and holy by Him. As we Christians will be in His presence after death, I believe this change “glorification” - the completion of the sanctification process - happens right after a believer dies. I don’t believe it takes hundreds of years, or thousands of years, or years, or days, I believe it occurs at the moment of death. It’s not about “not having suffered enough for our sins before we died.” The maturing and refining process you talk about is what takes place as we live our lives. God doesn’t sit there and say “I have saved you, but you didn’t suffer enough for your sins before I ended your life, so now you will have to wait a period of time in purgatory before I can allow you into my presence.” It appears that this is what is behind the belief of purgatory. Just a little more discomfort before finally being let into your reward. God is not sadistic. He’s already paid the price for us, why make those who die in Christ suffer a little more? There is a point to suffering while still alive on earth, but for the believer, there would be none after they are physically dead.


93 posted on 11/22/2010 10:30:53 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Alex Murphy; Salvation; Mad Dawg; Secret Agent Man; MacMattico; txzman; plain talk
Well, all of the conclusions you made in your earlier post were quite incorrect and they were thankfully NOT what The Church teaches

In Christianity, "Salvation" means Salvation -- the general meaning of liberation from straitened circumstances or from other evils, and of a translation into a state of freedom and security. If you are in a state of purgatory, you ARE in a state of freedom and security because you ARE going to heaven, you're not going to hell. Purgatory is no more than washing your hands before entering the temple of God - metaphorically speaking

Christ's sacrifice paid for salvation. His shed blood is sufficient payment for us to enter into the presence of God. Remember the example of washing your hands before entering the Lord's presence -- THAT is the state of purgatory

Purgatory is a metaphysical "washing" of yourself before coming into the Lord's presence. There is no such thing of some further penance or payment.

Of Course, if you are "dirtier", you need more "washing" than if you are "cleaner", but the process is the same and the end point is the same -- entering into the Temple which ALL who reach the "washing" are going to.

Your link is again incorrect -- it's a link to the Ottawa sun and other MSM articles, which is akin to arguing about Barak O by referring to the NYTimes editorials

Catholicism teaches that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient, in fact super-sufficient for our salvation. He saved us, we cannot save ourselves. God's grace is what saves us. THAT is Church teaching

Furthermore your use of the word "time" is also incorrect as is the rest of your post because purgatory is not a time, not a place, it's a process, and in fact out of our sense of time and space. What it is, we don't know, but it is a "cleansing". Christ "cleansed" the theif next to him.

Instead of reading the Mainstream media and coming at a wrong conclusion of Christianity, it would be better for you to actually read the Bible and for details on the Church to read the Catechism.

This says
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (this ties in to 1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him.")

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
This is all what the Early Christians believed in, as some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it.
94 posted on 11/22/2010 11:26:32 PM PST by Cronos (This Church is Holy,theOne Church,theTrue Church,theCatholic Church - St. Augustine)
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To: johngrace; Alex Murphy
Thank you john. It's actually thanks to Alex and our other estranged brethern who bring up what they believe to be Church teachings (but which are incorrect) which has helped me.

If it wasn't for his bringing up these strange statements about what The Church believes, I would never investigate and see in detail what we REALLY believe in (which is quite opposite). Alex does The Church a great favor by making Catholics stronger in their faith and making us learn more about and getting stronger in our Catholic faith -- it's like fire makes steel stronger, so too strange statements about The Church's teachings on purgatory and the TRUTH about it (as a process) makes us draw closer to The Church and indeed makes us better Christians sharing in Christ's Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.
95 posted on 11/22/2010 11:30:28 PM PST by Cronos (This Church is Holy,theOne Church,theTrue Church,theCatholic Church - St. Augustine)
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To: plain talk
Sigh... I said it before, will say it again and repeat what The Church teaches --> Christ's sacrifice was SUPER-Sufficient for our Salvation.

The Church teaches that nothing we can do to purify ourselves --> God purifies us to come into His presence

Purgatory or washing or whatever you want to call it exists as a cleansing process. Yes, only God knows.

You're right that this is very abstract, yet this is a belief practised right from Early Christianity and praying for the dead. Does this really affect you as a Christian? Is it the central tenet of your belief? If you take it's underlying meaning which is that God loves you so much even if you have the stain of sin, He washes you to make you worthy of His presence, even AFTER He sacrificed Himself for you, then yes this is a part of the overall message of Christianity -- of a God of love who died for us, who does everything to save us except for dragging us kicking and screaming to heaven, of a God who even washes us (I take the washing analogy further -- we are dirty and barefoot and have trudged through muck to come to Our Lord's House made of shining clean marble -- the Lord has invited us, the Lord has provided us with the gate pass, we are in, yet do we trudge in with dirt into a place where dirt cannot stand? NO, we get washed by God.

You're right that we don't know what this washing process is -- maybe we just step over the threshold and get zapped clean, maybe it takes more "time", God knows. Yet praying for those in this case is good as praying always is good.
96 posted on 11/23/2010 12:06:42 AM PST by Cronos (This Church is Holy,theOne Church,theTrue Church,theCatholic Church - St. Augustine)
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To: Secret Agent Man
I completely agree about the delightful quality of the conversation we can have when we don't do the "nanny nanny boo boo" stuff. I thank you and I thank God.

It appears that this is what is behind the belief of purgatory. Just a little more discomfort before finally being let into your reward. God is not sadistic ....

Some nuns, on the other hand .... One of the friars here, 68 years old and one of the funniest guys I know, has a whole riff on "Sr. Mary Sadistica."

I can go this far with you at least: A LOT of Catholics seem to have a little sadistic streak which they often turn inwards. I'm guessing it's cultural and/or the devil's work. I say this because I worked for a while with a guy who professed to be an atheist, though he was brought up Catholic. And there was certainly a sadistic streak there.

And in my chapter of lay Dominicans there is a lady afflicted with "scrupulosity" (which I often think is just a cover for a personality disorder -- an illness rather than a sin.) And she seems just unable to accept that just as she is, right now, before she brushes and sprays her hair and slathers on the makeup -- either physical or spiritual -- God love here with a complete and undying love.

So she can take any suggestion that maybe this or that prayer or whatever and pervert it into another futile attempt to earn God's love.

So when (which God forbid) she teaches, she will certainly manage to convey this nastiness.

But, I say again, though there are torments aplenty in Dante's depiction of Purgatory, the whole atmosphere is one of joy. I see that it's hard to wrap one's mind around that. But while I have a healthy fear of pain, just as I looked forward to the therapist's seeming to try to pull my arm out of its socket when I went to PT, because I KNEW I was getting stronger and better, so also I look forward to purgation, whenever it happens.

This is not an attempt to persuade you of the doctrine, but an attempt to convey what I take to be a more accurate 'vibe' than that conveyed by Sr Mary Sadistica or my sister in my chapter, poor thing.

97 posted on 11/23/2010 6:12:47 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Except...the Bible doesn’t support purgatory AT ALL. In fact, it supports the opposite very clearly.


98 posted on 11/23/2010 3:25:27 PM PST by sigzero
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To: sigzero
To say that the Bible does not support purgatory is one thing. To say that it supports the opposite "very clearly" is possibly wrong and at the best undiplomatic.

Intelligent and studious people of good will and great learning are divided on this issue. Since that is the case, to say what amounts to "It's obvious," is to deny the studiousness, intelligence, and the good will of those who take another view. It is hard to imagine how that can be done politely.

Further, it is unnecessary. If it is so very clear that those who disagree with you are wrong, then instead of merely saying so, make the case.

Of course, in a polite conversation, to make one's case is to say one is prepared to listen while the others at the table express their opinion that the case has not been made. The only redeeming aspect of this patience-taxing effort is that sometimes one learns better what one's case is and how it might be made more persuasively.

It is fine to be confident that one is right. But one ought to remember that the other side is also confident that IT is right. And if one expects to be treated politely and respectfully when making one's case, it seems a matter of common courtesy that one ought to treat those with whom one disagrees politely and respectfully.

99 posted on 11/23/2010 6:09:59 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: ottbmare

Welcome home. I too am a cradle Episcopalian who longed for the fullness of the faith and was confirmed Catholic at Eastertide 2006. We do not know when a soul is released from Purgatory because we are “in time.” Heaven, hell and purgatory are outside of time. I imagine it to be like a dream, where things happen, scenes switch, we move around in time from time to time as we do from place to place. I do not fear purgatory. I welcome it. I don’t think it’s a “bad” place. I don’t think it’s intended to be painful. I can see how the longing for Him might be much like ours is today, but more poignant because we can feel him nearer, maybe even see him. I think day to day in purgatory we work, much like we do now, to atone, expunge, cleanse ourselves and our souls from sin.

On one thing I can agree with the prots. If you don’t confess Jesus, you go to hell. Period, end of. I don’t see why you can’t confess Jesus after death, I don’t know if Hell is really a one way trip, but I like C.S. Lewis’ conception of hell in the Celestial Omnibus - a dirty, grim, twilight, grey urban setting where a horse drawn bus comes by daily. If the denizens get on, they are taken to a beautiful meadow with all the comforts they have been lacking. Sadly, on being told that all they need to to enter therein is to give up their greed, their gluttony, their hatred, and admit that Jesus is Lord, they all get back on the bus and return to the dim nether region.


100 posted on 11/23/2010 6:40:01 PM PST by ichabod1 (Hail Mary Full of Grace, The Lord Is With Thee...)
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