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Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary
Mormonism Research Ministry ^ | Loren Franck

Posted on 11/08/2010 3:37:09 PM PST by delacoert

The Bible predicts a dreadful fate for liars. For instance, while banished on the island of Patmos, the Apostle John saw that "all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8). Similarly, the beloved disciple writes, liars are doomed to an eternity outside of God's presence (Revelation 22:15). Because Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44), lying is extremely serious sin.

As a full-time Mormon missionary from 1975 to 1977, I lied for the church countless times. Like my colleagues in the South Dakota-Rapid City Mission, which served the Dakotas and adjacent areas, I spoke truthfully about my background, but touted many Mormon teachings that contradict the Bible. After my mission ended, however, I examined these doctrines more closely. The harder I tried to reconcile the contradictions, the more evident they became. So, after extensive prayer and study, I resigned my church membership in 1984. Cheated and betrayed, I lacked spiritual life for the next 17 years. But God, knowing those who are His (John 10:14; 2 Timothy 2:19), drew me to Christ (John 6:44) and saved me in 2001. My spiritual emptiness was replaced by the abundant life only the Savior can give (John 10:10). And now, like millions of Christians worldwide, I have everlasting life through my faith in Him (John 3:36; 6:47).

I can't remember all of my missionary lies. Some were small, others grandiose, but all were false and misleading. Here are ten I'll never forget.

1. We're Not Trying to Convert You 

Of all my lies, this was the most frequent. I learned it well while in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which was my first assignment. A standard door-to-door proselyting pitch began with, "We represent The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Interrupting, many people said they had their own religion. "Oh, we're not trying to convert you," I responded. "We're sharing a message for all faiths."

But Mormon missionaries have one overriding goal, and that's to bring converts into the church. Clearly, this was the purpose of my mission. I didn't trade the Southern California sunshine for the Dakota snow merely to build interfaith relations. My calling was to teach the church-approved missionary lessons and then baptize the people I taught.

2. The Bible is Insufficient 

According to their eighth Article of Faith, Mormons accept the Bible as the word of God only when it's translated correctly. How convenient for a missionary. When a non-Mormon's interpretation of scripture differed from mine, I frequently blamed faulty Bible translation. And since I believed the Bible was missing "many plain and precious things," as the Book of Mormon claims in 1 Nephi 13:28-29, I urged prospective converts not to trust it completely.

And yet, Mormon proof texts had few translation problems. Throughout my mission, I used only those Bible verses that steered prospects away from their church and toward Mormonism. But what kind of Christian believes that an all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving God gave mankind an inadequate version of His word. Actually, the Bible is more than sufficient. With its 66 books, 1,189 chapters and nearly 740,000 words, it's the divine road map to eternal life through Jesus Christ.

3. We're the Only True Christians

For decades, the Mormon Church has tried to blend with mainstream Christianity. Accordingly, during my mission a quarter-century ago, I worked hard to convince prospects that Mormons believe in the biblical Jesus. But Paul warned of deceivers who would lure Christians away from "the simplicity that is in Christ." These false teachers preached "another Jesus" and "another gospel" (2 Corinthians 11: 3-4) and were accursed (see Galatians 1:8-9). How interesting that Paul also cautions against false apostles, such as those in the Mormon Church (2 Corinthians 11:13-14).

So which Jesus and gospel do Mormons preach? While a missionary, I taught that Christ was the firstborn spirit child of the Father in a premortal life. (The remainder of humanity was born as spirits later in this "pre-existence.") But I didn't tell prospects this was a literal birth, the result of literal fathering, as Mormon prophets and apostles have claimed. If asked, I taught that the devil was born as one of God's noble spirit sons during the pre-existence, but had rebelled and started a war in heaven.

Consistent with Mormon doctrine, then, Christ and Satan are spirit brothers. But the Bible teaches that Christ is God (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6; John 1:1), that He has always been God (Psalm 90:2), and that He always will be God (Hebrews 13:8). Born into mortality some 2,000 years ago, Jesus is "God... manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16). He is far grander and holier than "our Elder Brother," as Mormons dub Him. Jesus and Satan aren't spirit brothers, and true Christians don't believe such blasphemy.

4. We're the Only True Church 

I usually told this lie during the first of seven 30-minute missionary lessons, which presented the Joseph Smith story. According to our script, Smith prayed in 1820 about which church to join. He claimed the Father and Son appeared and told him that all Christian churches of the day were wrong. Smith said he was forbidden to join any of them, that their creeds were abominable and their professors all corrupt. "They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me," the Lord allegedly added. "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men" (Joseph Smith — History, verse 19). In subsequent lessons, I told prospects that Mormonism is the true church God restored through Smith.

But the Bible says such a restoration was unnecessary. Admittedly, there was partial apostasy after Christ's resurrection, but never a complete falling away. In fact, shortly before His crucifixion, Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church (Matthew 16:18). During my mission, however, I argued that the gates of hell did prevail against Christ's church.

Shortly after renouncing Mormonism, I learned a scriptural death blow to notions of universal apostasy. Addressing Ephesian believers 30 years after the Ascension, the Apostle Paul writes, "Unto [God] be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Ephesians 3:21). God received glory in the Christian church from the time of Paul's writing to the present day, and He will receive such glory throughout all succeeding generations. Therefore, the church must exist from Paul's day throughout eternity. This annihilates Mormon claims of complete apostasy and makes restoration of Christ's church impossible.

5. We Have a Living Prophet 

Whether in wintry Winnipeg or the balmy Black Hills of Rapid City, I criticized Christians because their church lacked a living prophet. Mormons claim the true church must have one. My favorite Bible proof text to back this claim was Amos 3:7, which reads, "Surely, the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

When prospective converts remained skeptical of living prophets, I quoted Ephesians 4:11-14, which apparently requires living apostles and prophets until believers unify in the faith and understand Christ completely. However, writing in the past tense, Paul is actually referring to apostles and prophets of Jesus' day. Otherwise, verse 11 would read that the Lord "is giving" or "will give" apostles and prophets. Of course, God did reveal His will through Old Testament prophets, as Amos 3:7 affirms. But for the last 2,000 years, He has spoken to believers through Christ (Hebrews 1:1-2).

The truth about Mormonism's living prophets is further illuminated in Deuteronomy 18:22. "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord," the scripture reads, "if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Isaiah 8:20 contains a similar warning: "To the law and the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

False prophets who led ancient Israel astray received the death penalty (Deuteronomy 13:1-5; 18:20), and all who profess to be living prophets should consider the consequences. Mormon prophets might appear grandfatherly and sincere, but they're not God's living oracles. Since the Mormon Church was founded in 1830, its prophets have uttered a striking number of false prophecies. (See chapter 14 of Jerald and Sandra Tanner's "The Changing World of Mormonism.")

6. The Book of Mormon is Scripture 

Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth, adding that man would become closer to God by following its precepts than by obeying any other book ("History of the Church," Vol. 4, p. 461). Replace "Book of Mormon" with "the Bible" and Smith would have told the truth.

When teaching missionary lessons, I boldly maintained that the Book of Mormon is scripture. I spent myriad hours convincing prospects that it's a sacred record of Christ's activities in the western hemisphere. Yet many Christians I contacted realized the book "borrows" heavily from the Bible and other sources. And in stark contrast to the Old and New Testaments, virtually no archaeological and anthropological evidence supports the Book of Mormon. Why not? Because it's fiction. When Christians want to read scripture, they turn to the Bible.

7. You're Saved By Works 

More than any other Mormon lie, this undermines Christ's atonement, which is the most sacred doctrine of the Bible. Mormons usually equate salvation with resurrection. Likewise, they refer to eternal life as "exaltation." I did both while teaching prospective converts. I relished the church's third Article of Faith, which claims, "through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

Trying to bridge the doctrinal divide between Mormons and Christians, I emphasized that salvation is by grace "after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). What classic Mormon double-talk. Unmistakably, the Bible says eternal life is a gift from God (Romans 5:15; 6:23) to those who believe in Christ (John 6:47), call upon Him (Romans 10:13) and receive Him as Lord and Savior (John 1:12). Contrary to Mormon dogma, this gift cannot be awarded meritoriously.

Equally clear is that salvation results from God's grace through each believer's faith, not from obeying a checklist of laws and ordinances (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). All who confess Christ and believe in Him from the heart shall be saved (Romans 10:8-13).

Most Mormons know little about imputed righteousness — and neither did I during my mission. Essentially, as Christians know, the Lord credits believers with His perfect righteousness and charges their transgressions to His sinless spiritual "account." Paul explains this doctrine masterfully in Romans 4 and 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.

When teaching the Mormon gospel, though, I emphatically denied imputed righteousness, which is the essence of the atonement. I stressed that eternal life is earned by perfect obedience to all gospel laws and ordinances. Yet the Bible says that "there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). As the Psalmist writes: "They are all gone aside. They are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Psalm 14:3; compare Romans 3:10-18).

How many Mormons perfectly obey all gospel laws? None. As the Bible asserts, even the church's current prophet can't keep God's laws thoroughly enough to merit heaven (1 John 1:8). And if he can't, how can anyone else?

8. People Can Become Gods 

Given its explosive nature, this tenet was rarely shared with prospective converts. Missionaries try to entice people into Mormonism gradually, and presenting the doctrine of plural gods is seldom the best way. Several contacts learned the concept from their pastors or read about it on their own, but it was new to most prospects.

"Our Father in heaven loves us so much," I often said, parroting our lesson script, "that He provided a plan [Mormonism] for us to become like him." I didn't mention that Mormon godhood includes spirit procreation throughout eternity. Neither did I hint that the Mormon God was formerly a mortal man, had lived on an earth like ours, and had earned salvation through good works. However, such polytheism strips God of glory and sovereignty. No wonder the Bible condemns it so strongly. When discussing plural gods on my mission, I sidestepped Isaiah 44:8 whenever possible. "Is there a God beside me?" the passage reads. "Yea, there is no God; I know not any." Other verses amply testify that only one God exists in the universe (Deuteronomy 4:35, 39; 6:4; Isaiah 43:10-11; 45:21-23).

When confronted with these scriptures as a missionary, I usually countered with, "Those verses mean we worship only one God, that there's only one God to us." And if that failed, I lied further: "The Bible isn't clear on this subject. Fortunately, the Lord told Joseph Smith that mortals can become gods." Smith might have had a revelation, but not from God.

9. You're Born Again By Becoming a Mormon 

One of my favorite missionary scriptures was John 3:5. "Verily, verily I say unto you," the Savior explains, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." To Mormon missionaries everywhere, being born of water means baptism into the Mormon Church. Birth of the Spirit refers to the gift of the Holy Ghost, allegedly bestowed after baptism.

Unfortunately, during my mission, I didn't know what it means to be born again. I completely misinterpreted Paul's declaration that "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17; compare Galatians 6:15). According to the Bible, believers in Christ are reborn spiritually as sons and daughters of God (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1-2). They experience a complete Christian conversion of mind and heart. Membership in a church organization might foster social activity and fellowship, but it's not spiritual rebirth.

10. Temple Marriage is Required for Eternal Life 

I participated in well over 100 Mormon temple ceremonies from 1975 to 1982, including my own marriage in 1977. Based heavily on freemasonry, temple rites are the church's most carefully guarded secrets. And "celestial marriage," which supposedly weds men and women eternally, is probably the most important temple ordinance. While a missionary, I frequently told prospects they needed temple marriage to gain eternal life.

Yet the Lord says marriage between men and women is irrelevant to the hereafter. "The children of this age marry, and are given in marriage," He declares. "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage… for they are equal unto the angels...." (Luke 20:34-36.)

The Bible does teach eternal marriage, but not the Mormon version. The union is between Christ, the Bridegroom, and His collective body of believers, who are the bride (Matthew 25:1-13; John 3:29; Romans 7:4; 2 Corinthians 11:2).

False Testimony

I close with a few words about "testimony," which is a missionary's emergency cord. When I couldn't rebut an antagonistic statement scripturally, I fell back on my testimony. For instance, while proselyting in Grand Forks, North Dakota, I was once asked where the Bible mentions the secret undergarments Mormons wear. Caught off guard, I admitted that the Bible says nothing about them. I could merely testify that God revealed the need for these garments through living prophets. But my testimony wasn't based on scripture or other hard evidence. Rather, it was founded on personal revelation, which is extremely subjective. Essentially, my testimony was nothing more than a good feeling about the church and its teachings. In Mormon parlance, it was a "burning in the bosom." But burning or not, it wasn't from God.

If you're a Christian, I urge you to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). That faith, the pathway to heaven, is found only in the biblical Jesus (John 14:6). But if you're a Mormon, it's time to prayerfully re-examine your beliefs. Do you know you have everlasting life? No. Can you obey all the commandments perfectly and earn a place in heaven? You can't.

I regret the many lies I told during my Mormon mission. When I received Christ, though, I confessed them (and my other sins) and received His forgiveness (1 John 1:9; Colossians 1:13-14). "He that heareth my word," Christ assures us, "and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).


TOPICS: Other non-Christian
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; mormon
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To: Elsie

I have received a witness that Joseph Smith was called by God to be a prophet, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was established by God and is led by Jesus Christ through authorized servants.


381 posted on 11/12/2010 4:52:43 AM PST by Normandy
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To: restornu
 

Jesus said he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Incoming BOULDER alert!

 



  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!
 
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
 

382 posted on 11/12/2010 4:52:56 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Normandy
Would a demon inspire a person to repent of their sins and follow Jesus?

Yup; that POLYGAMY thing was sure SINLESS!

Yup; the JESUS found in MORMON scripture is the one to follow all right!

383 posted on 11/12/2010 4:55:16 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Normandy
WHAT??

That's IT?

You are going to recieve another witness, in the days to come.

And you will believe it.

But then you'll have to act on that knowledge.

We'll be praying for you.

384 posted on 11/12/2010 4:59:13 AM PST by Elsie
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To: william clark
All right; who got all jiggy on us and had their posts removed??
 
Gilly??


Comment #316 Removed by Moderator

To: Normandy
I’ve said this before — to find out a spiritual truth you should seek from the Source of truth.
.
.
.
you "If you're not convinced that this is the greatest car ever, just go ask my boss."

317 posted on Thursday, November 11, 2010 4:03:34 PM by william clark (Ecclesiastes 10:2)

Comment #318 Removed by Moderator

Comment #319 Removed by Moderator

Comment #320 Removed by Moderator

 
 
 
 
 
 
  


385 posted on 11/12/2010 5:05:14 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Normandy

Personal feelings provided by personal experiences do not provide Truths.


386 posted on 11/12/2010 5:56:37 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: POWG; Colofornian; Paragon Defender; Godzilla
I find it laughable that you are offended when I call you a “bigot”. Do you even know the definition of the word?

I find it a sad irony that in your #118 you refer to your calling of people bigots in lieu of even beginning to attempt to rebut Colofornian's specific point on counterfeit christs in #86.

Paragon Defender addresses template posts to "Seekers of truth." In light of that appeal I can safely say that any thoughtful person who looks at your #118 cannot help but see that instead of answering the challenge you try to deflect the issue by ignoring it. Of course there is nothing that compels you to respond specifically to the point raised, but you should know that there is at least one observer who thinks your silence on the point is glaringly obvious.

Cordially,

387 posted on 11/12/2010 6:28:59 AM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: ShadowAce

How is anyone convinced of anything except by personal experience?

How does anyone come to Christ except by having an inner conviction of the truth of the gospel message?

How did Peter learn the Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God? : “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in Heaven”

The Bible is replete with examples of prophets and apostles having personal experiences in which God transmitted truth to them — which they then went on to teach to others.


388 posted on 11/12/2010 6:42:35 AM PST by Normandy
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To: Normandy
All of those experiences were backed up by Gospel, the law, and prophecies. Mormons claims to "personal revelations" are not backed up by anything. They're just "we claim it, and you can't disprove it."

Personal revelations from Scripture, OTOH, are different. The person can point to Scripture, say "because Scripture says this and this, and this, I now believe this." There is a definite line a reasoning there. Others may not agree with the reasoning, but it's there, and can be identified.

Saying that you have had a vision, or a feeling, or something else, that you cannot explain, nor point to is not evidence, nor is it Truth. It must be backed up by external sources.

Otherwise, any ol' Joe can come along and create his own religion.

389 posted on 11/12/2010 6:49:12 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Colofornian

Jesus said he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Be honest here, Resty: If you were on the jury in any of these cases; and you were in the jury deliberation room, is this the verse you would quote to the rest of the jury?

***

What does that have to do with what Jesus said?

You point the figure at the LDS but this has happen in all faiths it just that because the LDS are tightly knit makes it easier recognized than the sprawled out other faiths!


390 posted on 11/12/2010 6:58:07 AM PST by restornu
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To: Normandy
 

The Bible is replete with examples of prophets and apostles having personal experiences in which God transmitted truth to them — which they then went on to teach to others.


 
 
And here is the FIRST personal experience that Humans had with a Spirit:

Genesis 3

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" 

 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 

 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


391 posted on 11/12/2010 7:10:02 AM PST by Elsie
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To: restornu
 

What does that have to do with what Jesus said?

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages,
which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort,
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws,
and to use my influence with the members of the Church
over which I preside to have them do likewise.
 
Wilford Woodruff

President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 
September 24th, 1890

392 posted on 11/12/2010 7:11:41 AM PST by Elsie
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To: restornu
When you think of of 13 M millions plus members that there are no bad apples is being unrealistic...

In light of the info in post #369, gee, Resty...the years...
2010
2009
2008
must have been all bad apple bumper crop years for the Mormon church!!!...
...to bring a yield of $1.4 billion -- and still counting.

Resty...do you know of ANY church denomination which was turning out "bad apples" at even a 10th/ of that rate?

I mean c'mon...you make it sound like a lot @ 13 million people...but you can also slice this that the Mormon church is only 2% of the American population...
...and therefore, if it was your "bad apple" explanation, the Lds church would roughly have 1-3% of the religious fraud in America.

But if that was true, you'd have to times the $1.4 billion by 50 (Lds 2% of pop).

So has there been $72 billion worth of CRIMINAL RELIGIOUS PONZI-type fraud in this country the past two years?

393 posted on 11/12/2010 7:32:33 AM PST by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] ph<enomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: sitetest; All

I know it is hard to believe for some in the stuff of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints yet it does make wonder how it is possible for the bulk of the LDS who strive to follow their faith are maligned.

Do not the scriptures states “By their fruits ye shall know them.”

If the foundation is rotten then it can not produce good fruit.

How can one deny or skip the foundation and witness many of the followers Strive to keep the Lord Commandments.

Ezk.28

24 ¶ And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord God.
25 Thus saith the Lord God; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God.

Matt. 7: 16-20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


394 posted on 11/12/2010 7:36:03 AM PST by restornu
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To: restornu

James 2:19


395 posted on 11/12/2010 7:52:54 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: restornu

Do not the scriptures states “By their fruits ye shall know them.”

If the foundation is rotten then it can not produce good fruit.
_____________________________________________________

Thats true it cant...

Thats probably why that verse refers only to bad fruit...

The bad fruit of the mormon corporation...


396 posted on 11/12/2010 7:57:51 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: restornu
you are mistaken and I have told you anti this in the pass but it dose not stop you from repeating things which you know are not true

False accusation, Resty.

It has never been Church doctrine and I don’t care what someone written as their opinion.

Tell us, Resty have you written to these Lds...
... general authorities
...BYU professors
...Ensign editors
...Lds Institute editors & compilers
...Cedar Fort authors & publishers...
...telling them ALL how "wrong" they are & need you as their correcting angel sitting on their shoulders? (Or do you only treat non-Mormons that way?)

Why, I just can't understand why these men have failed to obey your interpretation, Resty?

ALL: Please note this example of how a Mormon will harrang you as saying something "wrong" (untrue)...Now, what Resty's response to see if she responds to REALITY -- as Mormon leaders have tried to define it.

Here's some choice quotes, Resty:

Joseph Smith, Jr.: “…ALL the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without ONE exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels.” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60).

Late 19th century:
George Q. Cannon, member of First Presidency with four different Lds "prophets": "AFTER the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, pg.324).

44 years ago:

Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: McConkie says all non-Mormon churches are "...the great apostate church as the anti-christ...This great antichrist...is the church of the devil." (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p.40)

Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "What is the church of the devil in our day, and what is the seat of her power?…It is all the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel….It is communism, it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in ALL its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini" (Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55).

Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)

This last quote, note you, Resty was cited by the official Mormon church
* The church of JC LDS: Seminaries and Institutes of Religion: Book of Mormon Student Manual: Chapter 4: 1Nephi 11–14 : Notes and Commentary
* It was also cited among study guides commonly used in the Mormon church as published by Cedar Fort out of Springville, Utah...in these two 2007 books:
* Randal S. Chase, Making Precious Things Plain: A Book of Mormon Study Guide: Volume 1: 1 Nephi-Alma 16 Cedar Fort, Springville, UT, 2007 p. 40
* K. Douglas Bassett, PhD, Doctrinal Insights to the Book of Mormon: Vol. 1: 1 Nephi through 2 Nephi Cedar Fort, Springville, UT 2007, pp. 62-63

26 years ago -- Official Lds church magazine, Ensign:
The “man of sin,” generally equated with Satan, would exalt himself over all that is divine and assume the place of God in the Church. Of historical and theological significance is the fact that in Paul’s prophecy the church structure survives. But God is not at its head, making that church—following the appearance in it of Satan—no longer the church of God....How appropriate, therefore, is Paul’s description of him sitting in the place of God in the church of the apostasía. Kent P. Jackson, Signs of the Early Apostasy, Ensign, December 1984 Signs of the Early Apostasy

This BYU professor is commenting on 2 Thess. 2:1-12 here...which Christian commentators reference as future. Lds leaders constantly reference 2 Thess. 2:1-12 as past tense -- evidence of the great apostasy...Jackson calls it a "drastic" apostasy. Lds doctrine is that it was total or all but a handful...and those handful were never "public."

20 years ago:

BYU professor Kent B. Jackson: "Since whoever does not belong to 'the church of the Lamb of God' belongs to 'the church of the devil,' as Nephi announced then all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil' by Nephi's definition (Kent B. Jackson, "Watch and Remember" etc. from publication By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 3/27/90, vol. 1, p. 87, citing 1 Nephi 14:9-10 from the Book of Mormon)

397 posted on 11/12/2010 8:02:08 AM PST by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] ph<enomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: restornu
The Book of Mormon was accurate on this as we see it clearly unfold in the earth today. This is all about the war in heaven being carried out in the earth today which you renouce the LDS scripture of the struggles between archangle Michael and Lucifer which the Bible also testifies.

Well, Mormon writers and Mormon "scripture" says it's all about post-Mormonism's onset alright. Especially accelerating with a North American-era time frame but is past not future:

"The context of Nephi's division of churches into one of two camps, those belonging to the Lamb of God and those who are disciples of the devil, comes only AFTER the Church of Jesus Christ was restored in April of 1830." (BYU Professor Emeritus Joseph Fielding McConkie, Here We Stand, p. 152)

I mean even this online commentary for a Book of Mormon class supports this:
1 Nephi 13:12-16 The settling of the Americas by the Gentiles, starting with Columbus.
13:17-19 The revolutionary war (and other battles for independence?).
...14:7 a great and a marvelous work. The restoration of the gospel in the last days.

Source: http://ldsts.com/bomclass/BoM03%20-%201%20Nephi%2010-18.pdf

And the official Lds Web site, published an article by BYU prof Stephen Robinson in two venues (See http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=a05379356427b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD + http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=7&num=1&id=168) in which Robinson concedes:

"In 1 Nephi 13 the great and abominable church is one specific church among many. Nephi's description of it as "most abominable above all other churches" (1 Nephi 13:5, 26) does not make sense otherwise. Moreover, the great and abominable church in chapter 13 has a specific historical description: it was formed among the Gentiles after the Jews transmitted the Bible in its purity to the Gentiles. (see 1 Nephi 13:26). It is also the specific historical agent responsible for excising plain and precious truths from the scriptural record. To this we must add the information given in Doctrine and Covenants 86:1–3, which states that the great and abominable church did its work after the apostles had "fallen asleep"—that is, after the end of the first century AD In Revelation, the role of the whore also has a historical frame. She comes into the picture after the appearance of the beast, which she rides and which supports her, and she is eliminated from the scene while it yet continues (see Revelation 13:1; 17:3, 7, 16). Clearly, "great and abominable" here refers to one specific church among many others that are not "great and abominable." The apparent contradiction comes in 1 Nephi 14:10, in which we are told that the devil's church consists of all those organizations not associated with the Church of Jesus Christ: "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil."

So here, 1 Nephi 13:5, 12-19, 26 is all talking about American history and the history of a specific abominable whore church. D&C 86:1-3 reinforces its time fram as being post-apostolic. And 1 Nephi 14:7 supposedly references a latter-day restoration.

So is Robinson seeing 1 Nephi 13 as "historical" and 1 Nephi 14 as "non-historical" only a "contradiction" for Robinson because...
...he perhaps has some Evangelical friends and apparently he doesn't like it pointed out to him that 1 Nephi 14:9 and following seem just "historical" in presentation as 1 Nephi 13 and 1 Nephi 14:7???

398 posted on 11/12/2010 8:07:10 AM PST by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] ph<enomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Colofornian

Those are opinions just like your bais opinion that does not make them doctrines.

Doctrine is where the Lord Speaks not someone left over bagage from the mainstream.

Only the part where Joseph Smith receive a revelation to his pray that he asked the Lord.

Join none of them

They worship me with their lip but their hearts are far from me!


399 posted on 11/12/2010 8:07:36 AM PST by restornu
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To: restornu

Only the part where Joseph Smith receive a revelation to his pray that he asked the Lord.
_____________________________________________

What was it that Joey Smith asked his mormon lord ???


400 posted on 11/12/2010 8:13:34 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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