Posted on 11/08/2010 3:37:09 PM PST by delacoert
I have received a witness that Joseph Smith was called by God to be a prophet, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was established by God and is led by Jesus Christ through authorized servants.
Jesus said he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Incoming BOULDER alert!
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
Yup; that POLYGAMY thing was sure SINLESS!
Yup; the JESUS found in MORMON scripture is the one to follow all right!
That's IT?
You are going to recieve another witness, in the days to come.
And you will believe it.
But then you'll have to act on that knowledge.
We'll be praying for you.
Personal feelings provided by personal experiences do not provide Truths.
I find it a sad irony that in your #118 you refer to your calling of people bigots in lieu of even beginning to attempt to rebut Colofornian's specific point on counterfeit christs in #86.
Paragon Defender addresses template posts to "Seekers of truth." In light of that appeal I can safely say that any thoughtful person who looks at your #118 cannot help but see that instead of answering the challenge you try to deflect the issue by ignoring it. Of course there is nothing that compels you to respond specifically to the point raised, but you should know that there is at least one observer who thinks your silence on the point is glaringly obvious.
Cordially,
How is anyone convinced of anything except by personal experience?
How does anyone come to Christ except by having an inner conviction of the truth of the gospel message?
How did Peter learn the Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God? : “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in Heaven”
The Bible is replete with examples of prophets and apostles having personal experiences in which God transmitted truth to them — which they then went on to teach to others.
Personal revelations from Scripture, OTOH, are different. The person can point to Scripture, say "because Scripture says this and this, and this, I now believe this." There is a definite line a reasoning there. Others may not agree with the reasoning, but it's there, and can be identified.
Saying that you have had a vision, or a feeling, or something else, that you cannot explain, nor point to is not evidence, nor is it Truth. It must be backed up by external sources.
Otherwise, any ol' Joe can come along and create his own religion.
Jesus said he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Be honest here, Resty: If you were on the jury in any of these cases; and you were in the jury deliberation room, is this the verse you would quote to the rest of the jury?
***
What does that have to do with what Jesus said?
You point the figure at the LDS but this has happen in all faiths it just that because the LDS are tightly knit makes it easier recognized than the sprawled out other faiths!
The Bible is replete with examples of prophets and apostles having personal experiences in which God transmitted truth to them — which they then went on to teach to others.
What does that have to do with what Jesus said?
In light of the info in post #369, gee, Resty...the years...
2010
2009
2008
must have been all bad apple bumper crop years for the Mormon church!!!...
...to bring a yield of $1.4 billion -- and still counting.
Resty...do you know of ANY church denomination which was turning out "bad apples" at even a 10th/ of that rate?
I mean c'mon...you make it sound like a lot @ 13 million people...but you can also slice this that the Mormon church is only 2% of the American population...
...and therefore, if it was your "bad apple" explanation, the Lds church would roughly have 1-3% of the religious fraud in America.
But if that was true, you'd have to times the $1.4 billion by 50 (Lds 2% of pop).
So has there been $72 billion worth of CRIMINAL RELIGIOUS PONZI-type fraud in this country the past two years?
I know it is hard to believe for some in the stuff of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints yet it does make wonder how it is possible for the bulk of the LDS who strive to follow their faith are maligned.
Do not the scriptures states “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
If the foundation is rotten then it can not produce good fruit.
How can one deny or skip the foundation and witness many of the followers Strive to keep the Lord Commandments.
Ezk.28
24 ¶ And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord God.
25 Thus saith the Lord God; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God.
Matt. 7: 16-20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
James 2:19
Do not the scriptures states “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
If the foundation is rotten then it can not produce good fruit.
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Thats true it cant...
Thats probably why that verse refers only to bad fruit...
The bad fruit of the mormon corporation...
False accusation, Resty.
It has never been Church doctrine and I don’t care what someone written as their opinion.
Tell us, Resty have you written to these Lds...
... general authorities
...BYU professors
...Ensign editors
...Lds Institute editors & compilers
...Cedar Fort authors & publishers...
...telling them ALL how "wrong" they are & need you as their correcting angel sitting on their shoulders? (Or do you only treat non-Mormons that way?)
Why, I just can't understand why these men have failed to obey your interpretation, Resty?
ALL: Please note this example of how a Mormon will harrang you as saying something "wrong" (untrue)...Now, what Resty's response to see if she responds to REALITY -- as Mormon leaders have tried to define it.
Here's some choice quotes, Resty:
Joseph Smith, Jr.: “…ALL the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without ONE exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels.” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60).
Late 19th century:
George Q. Cannon, member of First Presidency with four different Lds "prophets": "AFTER the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, pg.324).
44 years ago:
Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: McConkie says all non-Mormon churches are "...the great apostate church as the anti-christ...This great antichrist...is the church of the devil." (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p.40)
Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "What is the church of the devil in our day, and what is the seat of her power?…It is all the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel….It is communism, it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in ALL its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini" (Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55).
Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)
This last quote, note you, Resty was cited by the official Mormon church
* The church of JC LDS: Seminaries and Institutes of Religion: Book of Mormon Student Manual: Chapter 4: 1Nephi 11–14 : Notes and Commentary
* It was also cited among study guides commonly used in the Mormon church as published by Cedar Fort out of Springville, Utah...in these two 2007 books:
* Randal S. Chase, Making Precious Things Plain: A Book of Mormon Study Guide: Volume 1: 1 Nephi-Alma 16 Cedar Fort, Springville, UT, 2007 p. 40
* K. Douglas Bassett, PhD, Doctrinal Insights to the Book of Mormon: Vol. 1: 1 Nephi through 2 Nephi Cedar Fort, Springville, UT 2007, pp. 62-63
26 years ago -- Official Lds church magazine, Ensign:
The “man of sin,” generally equated with Satan, would exalt himself over all that is divine and assume the place of God in the Church. Of historical and theological significance is the fact that in Paul’s prophecy the church structure survives. But God is not at its head, making that church—following the appearance in it of Satan—no longer the church of God....How appropriate, therefore, is Paul’s description of him sitting in the place of God in the church of the apostasía. Kent P. Jackson, Signs of the Early Apostasy, Ensign, December 1984 Signs of the Early Apostasy
This BYU professor is commenting on 2 Thess. 2:1-12 here...which Christian commentators reference as future. Lds leaders constantly reference 2 Thess. 2:1-12 as past tense -- evidence of the great apostasy...Jackson calls it a "drastic" apostasy. Lds doctrine is that it was total or all but a handful...and those handful were never "public."
20 years ago:
BYU professor Kent B. Jackson: "Since whoever does not belong to 'the church of the Lamb of God' belongs to 'the church of the devil,' as Nephi announced then all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil' by Nephi's definition (Kent B. Jackson, "Watch and Remember" etc. from publication By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 3/27/90, vol. 1, p. 87, citing 1 Nephi 14:9-10 from the Book of Mormon)
Well, Mormon writers and Mormon "scripture" says it's all about post-Mormonism's onset alright. Especially accelerating with a North American-era time frame but is past not future:
"The context of Nephi's division of churches into one of two camps, those belonging to the Lamb of God and those who are disciples of the devil, comes only AFTER the Church of Jesus Christ was restored in April of 1830." (BYU Professor Emeritus Joseph Fielding McConkie, Here We Stand, p. 152)
I mean even this online commentary for a Book of Mormon class supports this:
1 Nephi 13:12-16 The settling of the Americas by the Gentiles, starting with Columbus.
13:17-19 The revolutionary war (and other battles for independence?).
...14:7 a great and a marvelous work. The restoration of the gospel in the last days.
Source: http://ldsts.com/bomclass/BoM03%20-%201%20Nephi%2010-18.pdf
And the official Lds Web site, published an article by BYU prof Stephen Robinson in two venues (See http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=a05379356427b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD + http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=7&num=1&id=168) in which Robinson concedes:
"In 1 Nephi 13 the great and abominable church is one specific church among many. Nephi's description of it as "most abominable above all other churches" (1 Nephi 13:5, 26) does not make sense otherwise. Moreover, the great and abominable church in chapter 13 has a specific historical description: it was formed among the Gentiles after the Jews transmitted the Bible in its purity to the Gentiles. (see 1 Nephi 13:26). It is also the specific historical agent responsible for excising plain and precious truths from the scriptural record. To this we must add the information given in Doctrine and Covenants 86:1–3, which states that the great and abominable church did its work after the apostles had "fallen asleep"—that is, after the end of the first century AD In Revelation, the role of the whore also has a historical frame. She comes into the picture after the appearance of the beast, which she rides and which supports her, and she is eliminated from the scene while it yet continues (see Revelation 13:1; 17:3, 7, 16). Clearly, "great and abominable" here refers to one specific church among many others that are not "great and abominable." The apparent contradiction comes in 1 Nephi 14:10, in which we are told that the devil's church consists of all those organizations not associated with the Church of Jesus Christ: "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil."
So here, 1 Nephi 13:5, 12-19, 26 is all talking about American history and the history of a specific abominable whore church. D&C 86:1-3 reinforces its time fram as being post-apostolic. And 1 Nephi 14:7 supposedly references a latter-day restoration.
So is Robinson seeing 1 Nephi 13 as "historical" and 1 Nephi 14 as "non-historical" only a "contradiction" for Robinson because...
...he perhaps has some Evangelical friends and apparently he doesn't like it pointed out to him that 1 Nephi 14:9 and following seem just "historical" in presentation as 1 Nephi 13 and 1 Nephi 14:7???
Those are opinions just like your bais opinion that does not make them doctrines.
Doctrine is where the Lord Speaks not someone left over bagage from the mainstream.
Only the part where Joseph Smith receive a revelation to his pray that he asked the Lord.
Join none of them
They worship me with their lip but their hearts are far from me!
Only the part where Joseph Smith receive a revelation to his pray that he asked the Lord.
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What was it that Joey Smith asked his mormon lord ???
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