Oy Vey...
Posted on 10/19/2010 8:21:21 AM PDT by Colofornian
In shopping around for a Cub Scout program for their two sons, ages 6 and 8, Jeremy and Jodi Stokes decided on the one at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews.
The Stokes, also of Matthews, weren't members of the evangelical megachurch, but they had many friends who were. And unlike the Cub Scout pack at their own church, which doesn't have a program for 6-year-old Tiger Scouts, Christ Covenant's was big enough to accommodate both of their boys.
The couple even signed up to be Scout leaders - he would lead the Bears, she'd help with the Tigers - when they discovered the church needed more adult help. And when the Scouting officials at Christ Covenant found out Jeremy Stokes was an Eagle Scout, they were thrilled.
So why, in the end, did Christ Covenant reject the Stokes' application to be Scout leaders?
Because they're Mormons. And, therefore, not real Christians, church officials told the couple last month.
The Rev. Gabe Sylvia, Christ Covenant's staff liaison to the Scouting program, confirmed the Stokes' account. He called them to apologize but defends the church's decision.
"Based on a once-over, informal scan, it looked like the Stokes would be good additions to our leadership," he said. "But when it became clear that they were Mormons, they could not become leaders in our pack. Mormonism is not consistent with historical Christianity."
That view - that Mormons are not Christians - is shared by other Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches. Mormons, though, do call themselves Christians.
The Stokes were told their sons were welcome to join, and that they could volunteer. But as practicing Mormons, they couldn't be leaders.
Scout Council: It's unusual
Mark Turner, executive director of the Mecklenburg County Council of the Boy Scouts, said it's the first local instance he knows of where parents were rejected for Scout leadership on religious grounds.
What upset the Stokes family most was the church questioning their Christianity.
"It was so offensive," said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. "I have a picture of Jesus in my living room."
And, she added, look at the formal name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Jeremy Stokes, a Bank of America financial consultant whose family has been in the LDS (Latter-day Saints) church for generations, wrote this when asked on Christ Covenant's Scouting application to describe his relationship with Christ: "One of the most important things in my life is my faith and trust in Christ and in His Atonement. Without Christ's help and guidance, I know I wouldn't be the loving father or devoted husband or humble man I am today. His example is the one help I need and rely on every day and I am truly grateful for that."
Bishop Steven Rowlan of the LDS ward, or parish, which the Stokes attend in Weddington, acknowledged that Mormon theology diverges from some beliefs shared by most Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians. But he insisted members of the LDS church are as Christian as the members of Christ Covenant.
"Yes, there are distinct differences," he said. "But not with respect to being a Christian. We definitely and truly are Christians in every sense of the word."
Not true, say Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches. They point to the LDS church's extra-biblical scriptures (Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon). Mormons also reject the professions of faith, or Christian creeds, that are recited on Sundays in many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches.
But the Stokes case raises another issue: Do Scout leaders or coaches of sports teams have to pass the same religious tests as, say, Sunday school teachers, if those troops and teams are chartered by houses of worship?
Packs at other churches
No is the answer at many churches, including Charlotte's largest - St. Matthew Catholic, with 28,000 members.
"We have Scout leaders of many faiths at St. Matthew," said Mike Nielsen, Scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 8. "Other than the Scoutmaster - that one job, which goes to a Catholic - I've never heard any mention of the faith of other (Cub Scout and Boy Scout) leaders."
But at Christ Covenant - the largest Presbyterian Church of America church in the Carolinas, with 600 families - the answer is yes.
"Boy Scouts is a ministry of our church," said Sylvia, the church's pastor for Christian Education and Young Families. "We want to insure that what (Scout leaders) believe is consistent with our denominational viewpoint."
For Sylvia, that at least means that Scout leaders must believe in the Apostles' Creed - a profession of faith dating back to the early centuries of Christianity.
Stelle Snyder, the spokeswoman for Christ Covenant, said it could even extend beyond that. A decade ago, she said, the church had to say no to a Catholic dad who wanted to coach one of the church's sports teams. Catholics, she said, often stress good works as the road to salvation more than many Protestants, who emphasize grace. And she said it's part of the role of coaches in her church's sports outreach program to share Bible stories.
"From the standpoint of ministering and representing the church, those people (coaches and Scout leaders) need to be on the same page," Snyder said. "In practice and intent, this is not meant to be unwelcome, unpleasant or unnecessarily legalistic. It's all for positive reasons. And it's not that Mormons have been singled out."
Turner, executive director of Mecklenburg's Boy Scouts Council, said Christ Covenant is within its rights as a chartering organization to apply additional leadership qualifications, as long as it also honors those the Boy Scouts insist on.
Some of the Boy Scouts' national guidelines have also been controversial and, to some, discriminatory. Because the Boy Scout pledge includes fealty to God and country, no atheists and agnostics can be members or leaders. Neither can homosexuals.
In Mecklenburg, Turner estimates 150 houses of worship charter Boy Scout troops and/or Cub Scout packs - a greater number than those sponsored by civic organizations, neighborhoods, and other groups.
Asked if other houses of worship apply theological tests for their Scouting leaders, Turner said he didn't know. "We're not asking that question out there," he said.
Should they?
"I think it's a good question," Turner said. "Scout leaders are mentors to young people, whether they're 7 years old or 13 years old. If that charter organization feels strongly about that and says our mission is to achieve 'X' objective through scouting, then it's OK for them to set these parameters."
Blatant racial discrimination would be another story, he said, with the council reserving the right to revoke any group's charter.
As for the Stokes family, Turner said, what happened was "unfortunate... We in the Boy Scouts want everybody - the whole family - to have a great experience, not a bad experience."
Stokes find Scouting home
Though the family pulled their sons out of the Christ Covenant scouting program, they have since signed up their 8-year-old for the smaller Cub Scout pack chartered by their Mormon ward in Weddington. The bishop has named Jeremy Stokes the pack Cubmaster and Jodi Stokes chair of the Scout committee.
"My little guy (the 6-year-old) can't join, so he tags along," his mother said.
Nationally, the Mormon church has a close relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. What is the Mormon church's rules about appointing Scout leaders?
Mormon Bishop Rowlan, who heads the Stokes' Weddington church, would not say whether he would be open to naming a non-Mormon as a Scouting leader.
"I'd have to take each one on an individual basis," he said, adding that that is the policy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
At Christ Covenant, meanwhile, Rev. Sylvia and spokeswoman Snyder said the Stokes case will prompt the church to clarify policies that were always understood, but not necessarily written down.
"There's a need for us to be much more specific, so that it's clear whoever is in a leadership position is consistent with what Christ Covenant teaches," said Snyder.
Totally seems a bit redundant, but I DO know something about tree grafts.
http://www.homeorchardsociety.org/article/3/
And this comes from one who tells us to read HISTORY.
DAMN!
I’ve been outted!
BUSTED!
Well you are partially correct once again.
Jesus is God, who created a new covenant, changing the rules as it were, and came as the Messiah for the whole world, both the Jews and everyone else (a twofer from God) he did start a new Religion, Christianity, built off of both traditions old and new.
It is not one that requires us to make numerous revisions to our own version of the Bible, say a name perfectly that we are not sure of the pronunciation to begin with nor is it simply traditional Judaism just add Savior that showed up in 1920.
It is your contention that Peter, a man who would go on to be a leader in the Early Church, who was born and raised in the middle of the Roman Empire, an Empire whose language was Latin, who traveled at the very crossroads between the Northern and Southern parts of said empire ultimately winding up in Rome itself, a place where more than a “smattering “ of Latin was spoken, to grow the Church in the regions he traveled in, preach to the locals on the journey and be martyred, in Rome, under the Emperor Nero spoke NO Latin at all?
Incredible...
James, step-brother to Yah'shua lead the Jerusalem council. Peter went to Babylon as is cited in scripture. There is no scriptural support for your assertion.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Obviously you are unfamiliar with the work of Hebrew Scholars such as Wilhelm Gesenius among others...
Yahweh predates the "German Christians" a tick or two...
Next time you might try leaving the apostrophe's off of 'pagan'.
Easter is thoroughly pagan in name and origin. It's only connection to Passover is that both happened in the spring around the time of the equinox. Early Christians had a bad habit of trying to make pagan conversions easier by Christianizing pagan holidays.
As a result, general Christianity lost the Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles as Christian feasts with all of their attendant prophetic fulfillment and replaced them with Easter and Christmas and their pagan symbolism.
Oy Vey...
And better...
As one who was an honors history major myself, and did more than a little reading on the Empire and its society this is about as funny as it gets.
I guess Peter just stuck his fingers in his ears and went “la la la’ when, well, basically anyone walked by...
I guess I would have to ask if Peter knew no Latin how did he find Rome LOL...
Unusual for one wrapped up in Mormonism.
“The first day of the week for a follower of the Messiah
begins at sundown on “Saturday””
So you use the definition of a day beginning at sundown thus Acts 20:7 means that they met on Sunday. as Saturday had ended with nightfall.
You are obvioulsy ignorant of how one tells time ;-)
No matter when you think Sunday begins, it always has been and always will be the first day of the week.
The sign above Jesus on the cross was written in three languages - Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew
Yahweh predates the "German Christians" a tick or two...
Christian Hebraist and Orientalist; born at Nordhausen Feb. 3, 1786; died Oct. 23, 1842. Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=193&letter=G#ixzz130Wwv95E
Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm Gesenius
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
(3 February 1786 – 23 October 1842)
was a German orientalist and Biblical critic.
Prove it, do you have a photo?
So you use the definition of a day beginning at sundown thus Acts 20:7 means that they met on Sunday. as Saturday had ended with nightfall.
thus Acts 20:7 means that they met on In Genesis, days begin at darkness and end at the darkness of the next day. Gentiles count days from some time during the night e.g. midnight. YHvH's Holy Shabbat begins at sundown on "Friday" and ends at sundown on "Saturday" The first day of the week for a follower of the Messiah would begin at sundown on "Saturday". Gentiles would see the first day beginning at midnight between "Saturday"/"Sunday" Sunday first day. as Saturday Shabbat had ended with nightfall.It is clear, I did not make myself clear enough.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
That is what the KJV of John 19:20 says,
"This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin."
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