Church: Mormons can't lead Scouts

Charlotte Observer ^ | Oct. 19, 2010 | Tim Funk

[Colofornian]

In shopping around for a Cub Scout program for their two sons, ages 6 and 8, Jeremy and Jodi Stokes decided on the one at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews.

The Stokes, also of Matthews, weren't members of the evangelical megachurch, but they had many friends who were. And unlike the Cub Scout pack at their own church, which doesn't have a program for 6-year-old Tiger Scouts, Christ Covenant's was big enough to accommodate both of their boys.

The couple even signed up to be Scout leaders - he would lead the Bears, she'd help with the Tigers - when they discovered the church needed more adult help. And when the Scouting officials at Christ Covenant found out Jeremy Stokes was an Eagle Scout, they were thrilled.

So why, in the end, did Christ Covenant reject the Stokes' application to be Scout leaders?

Because they're Mormons. And, therefore, not real Christians, church officials told the couple last month.

The Rev. Gabe Sylvia, Christ Covenant's staff liaison to the Scouting program, confirmed the Stokes' account. He called them to apologize but defends the church's decision.

"Based on a once-over, informal scan, it looked like the Stokes would be good additions to our leadership," he said. "But when it became clear that they were Mormons, they could not become leaders in our pack. Mormonism is not consistent with historical Christianity."

That view - that Mormons are not Christians - is shared by other Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches. Mormons, though, do call themselves Christians.

The Stokes were told their sons were welcome to join, and that they could volunteer. But as practicing Mormons, they couldn't be leaders.

Scout Council: It's unusual

Mark Turner, executive director of the Mecklenburg County Council of the Boy Scouts, said it's the first local instance he knows of where parents were rejected for Scout leadership on religious grounds.

What upset the Stokes family most was the church questioning their Christianity.

"It was so offensive," said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. "I have a picture of Jesus in my living room."

And, she added, look at the formal name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Jeremy Stokes, a Bank of America financial consultant whose family has been in the LDS (Latter-day Saints) church for generations, wrote this when asked on Christ Covenant's Scouting application to describe his relationship with Christ: "One of the most important things in my life is my faith and trust in Christ and in His Atonement. Without Christ's help and guidance, I know I wouldn't be the loving father or devoted husband or humble man I am today. His example is the one help I need and rely on every day and I am truly grateful for that."

Bishop Steven Rowlan of the LDS ward, or parish, which the Stokes attend in Weddington, acknowledged that Mormon theology diverges from some beliefs shared by most Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians. But he insisted members of the LDS church are as Christian as the members of Christ Covenant.

"Yes, there are distinct differences," he said. "But not with respect to being a Christian. We definitely and truly are Christians in every sense of the word."

Not true, say Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches. They point to the LDS church's extra-biblical scriptures (Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon). Mormons also reject the professions of faith, or Christian creeds, that are recited on Sundays in many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches.

But the Stokes case raises another issue: Do Scout leaders or coaches of sports teams have to pass the same religious tests as, say, Sunday school teachers, if those troops and teams are chartered by houses of worship?

Packs at other churches

No is the answer at many churches, including Charlotte's largest - St. Matthew Catholic, with 28,000 members.

"We have Scout leaders of many faiths at St. Matthew," said Mike Nielsen, Scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 8. "Other than the Scoutmaster - that one job, which goes to a Catholic - I've never heard any mention of the faith of other (Cub Scout and Boy Scout) leaders."

But at Christ Covenant - the largest Presbyterian Church of America church in the Carolinas, with 600 families - the answer is yes.

"Boy Scouts is a ministry of our church," said Sylvia, the church's pastor for Christian Education and Young Families. "We want to insure that what (Scout leaders) believe is consistent with our denominational viewpoint."

For Sylvia, that at least means that Scout leaders must believe in the Apostles' Creed - a profession of faith dating back to the early centuries of Christianity.

Stelle Snyder, the spokeswoman for Christ Covenant, said it could even extend beyond that. A decade ago, she said, the church had to say no to a Catholic dad who wanted to coach one of the church's sports teams. Catholics, she said, often stress good works as the road to salvation more than many Protestants, who emphasize grace. And she said it's part of the role of coaches in her church's sports outreach program to share Bible stories.

"From the standpoint of ministering and representing the church, those people (coaches and Scout leaders) need to be on the same page," Snyder said. "In practice and intent, this is not meant to be unwelcome, unpleasant or unnecessarily legalistic. It's all for positive reasons. And it's not that Mormons have been singled out."

Turner, executive director of Mecklenburg's Boy Scouts Council, said Christ Covenant is within its rights as a chartering organization to apply additional leadership qualifications, as long as it also honors those the Boy Scouts insist on.

Some of the Boy Scouts' national guidelines have also been controversial and, to some, discriminatory. Because the Boy Scout pledge includes fealty to God and country, no atheists and agnostics can be members or leaders. Neither can homosexuals.

In Mecklenburg, Turner estimates 150 houses of worship charter Boy Scout troops and/or Cub Scout packs - a greater number than those sponsored by civic organizations, neighborhoods, and other groups.

Asked if other houses of worship apply theological tests for their Scouting leaders, Turner said he didn't know. "We're not asking that question out there," he said.

Should they?

"I think it's a good question," Turner said. "Scout leaders are mentors to young people, whether they're 7 years old or 13 years old. If that charter organization feels strongly about that and says our mission is to achieve 'X' objective through scouting, then it's OK for them to set these parameters."

Blatant racial discrimination would be another story, he said, with the council reserving the right to revoke any group's charter.

As for the Stokes family, Turner said, what happened was "unfortunate... We in the Boy Scouts want everybody - the whole family - to have a great experience, not a bad experience."

Stokes find Scouting home

Though the family pulled their sons out of the Christ Covenant scouting program, they have since signed up their 8-year-old for the smaller Cub Scout pack chartered by their Mormon ward in Weddington. The bishop has named Jeremy Stokes the pack Cubmaster and Jodi Stokes chair of the Scout committee.

"My little guy (the 6-year-old) can't join, so he tags along," his mother said.

Nationally, the Mormon church has a close relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. What is the Mormon church's rules about appointing Scout leaders?

Mormon Bishop Rowlan, who heads the Stokes' Weddington church, would not say whether he would be open to naming a non-Mormon as a Scouting leader.

"I'd have to take each one on an individual basis," he said, adding that that is the policy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

At Christ Covenant, meanwhile, Rev. Sylvia and spokeswoman Snyder said the Stokes case will prompt the church to clarify policies that were always understood, but not necessarily written down.

"There's a need for us to be much more specific, so that it's clear whoever is in a leadership position is consistent with what Christ Covenant teaches," said Snyder.

[Elsie]

The Mormon church protects child abusers too.

I would guess not directly though.

It's probably just a by-product of keeping the CHURCHES reputation as clean as possible.

[Elsie]

No, the topic is about Mormons not leading Scouts. Per Wickie "28 varieties of Christianity and 38 faith groups are recognized by BSA for religious awards." One in 9 Boy Scouts are Mormon. So they are not Christian?

You've confused yourself. (or are trying to confuse us)

religious? - Yes.
Mormon? - Yes.
Christian? - No.

[ejonesie22]

Ok.

[Elsie]

Paradox Valley: just east of southern Utah.

Full of Mormon farmers and ranchers.

The valley runs WNW/ESE and the river that goes through is about 90° opposite direction.

Thus: Paradox.

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No; Fred and Wilma were NOT seen the last time I drove thru BEDROCK, CO

[Elsie]

 

I thought Eden in Iraq?

(In MORMONism; nothing is as it seems...)

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The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

(In MORMONism; nothing is as it seems...)

[Paragon Defender]

There goes Elsie again.... spewing the regurgitated, addressed a thousand times propaganda. Complete with colors and different font sizes! Sorry but that doesn’t make it any more true. Just fancier false. /yawn

[Elsie]

Looking very much like the picture they also have of Joey Smith in their living room...

 

 

He looks so WHITE and DELIGHTSOME!

[Elsie]

When can we expect the Shrew?

Resty will be along. Give her time...

[TexasRepublic]

The scriptures you cite do not answer my previous statement:

However, I don’t find any scriptural command in the Bible that churches should be promoting organizations outside of the church itself.

[Elsie]

 

Will the REAL 'Joseph Smith' please stand up!

 

 

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(The Great Plaster Joseph Smith)

 

 

[Elsie]

GMTA!!!!

[Colofornian]

We are to love others as ourselves.(Lev 19:18)

Yes, and how do we define love, based upon the Bible chapter known most for giving us a grand context for love?

6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

Iow, love and truth are "married" in the Bible -- not "divorced."

Love rejoices in the truth, whatever the truth may be. It doesn't take truth and hide it under a bushel so that darkness reigns.

Truth is light. And if we intentionally withhold light from our neighbors, we are not loving them, but patronizing them to their eternal deaths.

So, one way to love someone is to love them with the truth.

[TexasRepublic]

“How much ‘division’ is then OK with you?”

I’m for less division among people than you, apparently. I can live in the world without being conformed to this world. I can associate with people without having to practice their beliefs. I won’t seclude myself in a monastery.

[Elsie]

(Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon).

SLC 'mormons' do NOT 'abide' GOD's word found in D&C 132!

(Only them {DAMNED!! spit} FUNDAMENTALIST lds folks do that!)

[Elsie]

(Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon)

Not them early ones!!

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TRUTH IGNORED

 

 

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Smith, Young, Taylor, Pratt, Snow, Kimbal,l Woodruff ...

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 1 Timothy 3:2-3
 2.  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
 3.  not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

 

 

1 Timothy 3:12
   A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

 

 

 Titus 1:6
   An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

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BEHOLD!!!!  The Restorative Power  of the Book of Mormon!!

 

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THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI

CHAPTER 2

 

  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

 

 

[reaganaut]

And how can they call if they have not heard?

Are we just to allow false teachings to run rampant in the Body of Christ? Are we to allow wolves in sheep’s clothing into our churches? Are we to call false apostles, brother? NO. The NT is very clear on that.

By preaching Christ at all we condemn, because we are telling others that they NEED Jesus that without Him there is no Salvation. The message of the cross is foolishness to those that do not believe, but to those of us who are being saved it is the power of God. Mormons reject the message of the cross. I know, I used to BE Mormon. I know exactly what they believe and what their aims are and it is not Christian at all. (see tagline).

[Elsie]

 

Hey, who was the Boy Scout abuser of 17 boys in this case? (A Mormon BS leader) See: Boy Scouts sex files now evidence in Oregon lawsuit

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What is your church doing to help the male to stay true?

 

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"All of this should be conveyed without having priesthood leaders focus upon intimate matters which are a part of husband and wife relationships. Skillful interviewing and counseling can occur without discussion of clinical details by placing firm responsibility on individual members of the Church to put their lives in order before exercising the privilege of entering a house of the Lord. The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."
- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982

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"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

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"Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions - all ugly sins - but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions. Almost like twins, 'petting' and fornication are alike."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 65

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"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196

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"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.

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"I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965

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"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

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"How like the mistletoe is immorality. The killer plant starts with a sticky sweet berry. Little indiscretions are the berries -- indiscretions like sex thoughts sex discussions, passionate kissing, pornography. The leaves and little twigs are masturbation and necking and such, growing with every exercise. The full-grown plant is petting and sex looseness. It confounds, frustrates, and destroys like the parasite if it is not cut out and destroyed, for, in time it robs the tree, bleeds its life, and leaves it barren and dry; and, strangely enough, the parasite dies with its host."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Address, April 1, 1967.

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Did SOMEone say "JERKY"??

[TexasRepublic]

“How much ‘division’ is then OK with you?”

I’m for less division among people than you, apparently. I can live in the world without being conformed to this world. I can associate with people without having to practice their beliefs. I won’t seclude myself in a monastery.

[Colofornian]

Els & ALL: Mormonism is all about the great spiritual makeover coupled with PRism in forming the image they want to convey...even knowing full well it's a counterfeit.

Just's as the Mormon church has falsified Smith's facial image with artwork, it has engaged in editing the Book of Mormon with a great "makeover" from the get-go...thousands of edits...changes.

While most of the edits have been of a grammatical and spelling distinction, why does that still matter more than Mormons let on?

Because...
...with a dozen chapters of the Bible copied for word-for-word from the 1611 KJV...
...and hundreds of phrases likewise copied directly from the 1611 KJV Bible...
...there's a sense of King James majestic language that is likewise copied in part to the Book of Mormon.

Therefore, when you read an 1830 Book of Mormon, you are reading this mejestic presentation of the Bible and of language, and all of a sudden, you bump into what is obviously somebody writing who isn't smarter than a fifth-grader.

And it shows. Greatly. The contrast is so great, you know two authors are at work here. One who stumbles throughout many of the books within the Book of Mormon. And another -- the Biblical author -- shining through. What a contrast!

But due to Book of Mormon editors, the obviousness of that contrast has been greatly lessened. Nobody has told the reader about these changes.

Therefore, the next time a Mormon asks you if you've read the Book of Mormon version, ask them, "which one?" The 1830 version? The 1978 version? Another?

[Colofornian]

Els & ALL: Mormonism is all about the great spiritual makeover coupled with PRism in forming the image they want to convey...even knowing full well it's a counterfeit.

Just's as the Mormon church has falsified Smith's facial image with artwork, it has engaged in editing the Book of Mormon with a great "makeover" from the get-go...thousands of edits...changes.

While most of the edits have been of a grammatical and spelling distinction, why does that still matter more than Mormons let on?

Because...
...with a dozen chapters of the Bible copied for word-for-word from the 1611 KJV...
...and hundreds of phrases likewise copied directly from the 1611 KJV Bible...
...there's a sense of King James majestic language that is likewise copied in part to the Book of Mormon.

Therefore, when you read an 1830 Book of Mormon, you are reading this mejestic presentation of the Bible and of language, and all of a sudden, you bump into what is obviously somebody writing who isn't smarter than a fifth-grader.

And it shows. Greatly. The contrast is so great, you know two authors are at work here. One who stumbles throughout many of the books within the Book of Mormon. And another -- the Biblical author -- shining through. What a contrast!

But due to Book of Mormon editors, the obviousness of that contrast has been greatly lessened. Nobody has told the reader about these changes.

Therefore, the next time a Mormon asks you if you've read the Book of Mormon version, ask them, "which one?" The 1830 version? The 1978 version? Another?