Posted on 10/19/2010 8:21:21 AM PDT by Colofornian
In shopping around for a Cub Scout program for their two sons, ages 6 and 8, Jeremy and Jodi Stokes decided on the one at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews.
The Stokes, also of Matthews, weren't members of the evangelical megachurch, but they had many friends who were. And unlike the Cub Scout pack at their own church, which doesn't have a program for 6-year-old Tiger Scouts, Christ Covenant's was big enough to accommodate both of their boys.
The couple even signed up to be Scout leaders - he would lead the Bears, she'd help with the Tigers - when they discovered the church needed more adult help. And when the Scouting officials at Christ Covenant found out Jeremy Stokes was an Eagle Scout, they were thrilled.
So why, in the end, did Christ Covenant reject the Stokes' application to be Scout leaders?
Because they're Mormons. And, therefore, not real Christians, church officials told the couple last month.
The Rev. Gabe Sylvia, Christ Covenant's staff liaison to the Scouting program, confirmed the Stokes' account. He called them to apologize but defends the church's decision.
"Based on a once-over, informal scan, it looked like the Stokes would be good additions to our leadership," he said. "But when it became clear that they were Mormons, they could not become leaders in our pack. Mormonism is not consistent with historical Christianity."
That view - that Mormons are not Christians - is shared by other Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches. Mormons, though, do call themselves Christians.
The Stokes were told their sons were welcome to join, and that they could volunteer. But as practicing Mormons, they couldn't be leaders.
Scout Council: It's unusual
Mark Turner, executive director of the Mecklenburg County Council of the Boy Scouts, said it's the first local instance he knows of where parents were rejected for Scout leadership on religious grounds.
What upset the Stokes family most was the church questioning their Christianity.
"It was so offensive," said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. "I have a picture of Jesus in my living room."
And, she added, look at the formal name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Jeremy Stokes, a Bank of America financial consultant whose family has been in the LDS (Latter-day Saints) church for generations, wrote this when asked on Christ Covenant's Scouting application to describe his relationship with Christ: "One of the most important things in my life is my faith and trust in Christ and in His Atonement. Without Christ's help and guidance, I know I wouldn't be the loving father or devoted husband or humble man I am today. His example is the one help I need and rely on every day and I am truly grateful for that."
Bishop Steven Rowlan of the LDS ward, or parish, which the Stokes attend in Weddington, acknowledged that Mormon theology diverges from some beliefs shared by most Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians. But he insisted members of the LDS church are as Christian as the members of Christ Covenant.
"Yes, there are distinct differences," he said. "But not with respect to being a Christian. We definitely and truly are Christians in every sense of the word."
Not true, say Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches. They point to the LDS church's extra-biblical scriptures (Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon). Mormons also reject the professions of faith, or Christian creeds, that are recited on Sundays in many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches.
But the Stokes case raises another issue: Do Scout leaders or coaches of sports teams have to pass the same religious tests as, say, Sunday school teachers, if those troops and teams are chartered by houses of worship?
Packs at other churches
No is the answer at many churches, including Charlotte's largest - St. Matthew Catholic, with 28,000 members.
"We have Scout leaders of many faiths at St. Matthew," said Mike Nielsen, Scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 8. "Other than the Scoutmaster - that one job, which goes to a Catholic - I've never heard any mention of the faith of other (Cub Scout and Boy Scout) leaders."
But at Christ Covenant - the largest Presbyterian Church of America church in the Carolinas, with 600 families - the answer is yes.
"Boy Scouts is a ministry of our church," said Sylvia, the church's pastor for Christian Education and Young Families. "We want to insure that what (Scout leaders) believe is consistent with our denominational viewpoint."
For Sylvia, that at least means that Scout leaders must believe in the Apostles' Creed - a profession of faith dating back to the early centuries of Christianity.
Stelle Snyder, the spokeswoman for Christ Covenant, said it could even extend beyond that. A decade ago, she said, the church had to say no to a Catholic dad who wanted to coach one of the church's sports teams. Catholics, she said, often stress good works as the road to salvation more than many Protestants, who emphasize grace. And she said it's part of the role of coaches in her church's sports outreach program to share Bible stories.
"From the standpoint of ministering and representing the church, those people (coaches and Scout leaders) need to be on the same page," Snyder said. "In practice and intent, this is not meant to be unwelcome, unpleasant or unnecessarily legalistic. It's all for positive reasons. And it's not that Mormons have been singled out."
Turner, executive director of Mecklenburg's Boy Scouts Council, said Christ Covenant is within its rights as a chartering organization to apply additional leadership qualifications, as long as it also honors those the Boy Scouts insist on.
Some of the Boy Scouts' national guidelines have also been controversial and, to some, discriminatory. Because the Boy Scout pledge includes fealty to God and country, no atheists and agnostics can be members or leaders. Neither can homosexuals.
In Mecklenburg, Turner estimates 150 houses of worship charter Boy Scout troops and/or Cub Scout packs - a greater number than those sponsored by civic organizations, neighborhoods, and other groups.
Asked if other houses of worship apply theological tests for their Scouting leaders, Turner said he didn't know. "We're not asking that question out there," he said.
Should they?
"I think it's a good question," Turner said. "Scout leaders are mentors to young people, whether they're 7 years old or 13 years old. If that charter organization feels strongly about that and says our mission is to achieve 'X' objective through scouting, then it's OK for them to set these parameters."
Blatant racial discrimination would be another story, he said, with the council reserving the right to revoke any group's charter.
As for the Stokes family, Turner said, what happened was "unfortunate... We in the Boy Scouts want everybody - the whole family - to have a great experience, not a bad experience."
Stokes find Scouting home
Though the family pulled their sons out of the Christ Covenant scouting program, they have since signed up their 8-year-old for the smaller Cub Scout pack chartered by their Mormon ward in Weddington. The bishop has named Jeremy Stokes the pack Cubmaster and Jodi Stokes chair of the Scout committee.
"My little guy (the 6-year-old) can't join, so he tags along," his mother said.
Nationally, the Mormon church has a close relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. What is the Mormon church's rules about appointing Scout leaders?
Mormon Bishop Rowlan, who heads the Stokes' Weddington church, would not say whether he would be open to naming a non-Mormon as a Scouting leader.
"I'd have to take each one on an individual basis," he said, adding that that is the policy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
At Christ Covenant, meanwhile, Rev. Sylvia and spokeswoman Snyder said the Stokes case will prompt the church to clarify policies that were always understood, but not necessarily written down.
"There's a need for us to be much more specific, so that it's clear whoever is in a leadership position is consistent with what Christ Covenant teaches," said Snyder.
Color me confused. (Again).
Peter was quoting Hosea and Leviticus :
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
NAsbU Mark 12:33 AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND
WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH,
AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than
all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
RE:#160
HUH?
No, absolutely right. Rigdon was a Cambellite minister, and most of the ‘17 points of the true Church’ come directly from Campbell’s writings.
It is true that Campbell himself opposed Mormonism, but that has nothing to do with Smith and Rigdon stealing much of his ideas and teachings.
Gooogle “campbellite influence on early Mormonism”
You know the small "trained" patches that go on the sleeve? When I was the Charter Rep for our ward, I got one of these, just for fun. I was a rebel.
My son goes into 11 year old scouts next month, so I'll be getting more involved in the current program, for sure.
There haqve been FReepers who have commented in the past that their sons were banned from joining because they were not mormons...
Maybe ite just in some areas...
However if they could join, dont they have to listen to mormon teaching and are forced to learn mormon scripture etc ???
What about the Jamborees run by mormons ???
I say we let the gov’t intervene. Seems like most posters don’t want this troop to be able to make their own decisions about their own troop. Call the Feds!
...
They point to the LDS church’s extra-biblical scriptures (Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon).
...
For Sylvia, that at least means that Scout leaders must believe in the Apostles’ Creed
...
So if I understand things correctly, the reason Mormons are not Christians is because they do not believe in an extra-biblical doctrinal statement.
Colo, I didn’t say the Church uses scouting for a “substitute” youth program. It’s used as an activity arm of the church, but not a substitute.
No, it isn’t and I never said that. Your twisting of my words is perfect LDS tactic, though.
Ken made a comment that at least they left a church that abuses boys, and I replied with a statement that said it happens in Mormonism too. So they aren’t any better off in that respect.
However, theologically they are worse off as Mormons than as Catholics.
Ok, I agree with that. Loving your neighbor includes not allowing him to believe in a Pagan (False) God, right?
The Church has a DUTY to protect itself from wolves in sheep’s clothing. Nothing wrong with that.
The family would have been allowed to participate, just not be in leadership. They weren’t shunned.
“...theologically they are worse off as Mormons than as Catholics.” So says you.
Those are funny. First time I saw one, I did a double take. Promptly went out and ordered some.
I have the “Untrainable” one as a spoof since I’m our District Training Chairman.
When I wear that one to training courses, it takes folks a little while to catch it. The reactions are priceless.
Good for you and your son. This is a great time for him and it will be for you.
Help him to 1st Class by the time he’s 12 and it’ll be downhill from there.
Hey, who was the Boy Scout abuser of 17 boys in this case? (A Mormon BS leader) See: Boy Scouts sex files now evidence in Oregon lawsuit
Excerpt from that article: Attorneys...won the release of files from 1965-85 to help them make the case in a $14 million lawsuit against the Boy Scouts filed by a 37-year-old Oregon man. He was sexually molested in the early 1980s by assistant Scoutmaster Timur Dykes, who was convicted three times between 1983 and 1994 of sexually abusing boys, most of them Scouts.
...testimony from a bishop for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints responsible for a Scout troop of church members suggested the Scouts never provided leaders with training about spotting abuse or preventing it. In a video deposition, Gordon McEwen said he tended mostly to his church duties...He was also vague about his recollections of conversations with Scoutmaster Earl Wiest about Dykes. McEwen said he stepped up his involvement when the mother of a scout complained in January 1983 her son may have been abused. McEwen said he confronted Dykes, who admitted abusing 17 boys and provided a written list of names. But a retired police officer who investigated the abuse report testified Friday that McEwen never told police about the list....McEwen admitted he never turned over the list to police. But he said he personally contacted the parents of all 17 boys on the list before calling a state meeting of the church to "disfellowship" Dykes, or limit his church involvement, and counseled him to "repent of his errors..." (March 10, 2010 Deseret News)
So here's this Lds bishop; and he has a list of 17 sexual abuse victims within the Scouts supplied by the perpetrator, an assistant scoutmaster, and he never supplies the list to law enforcement???
And then he "counseled him to 'repent of his errors...'"
Say what? He "counseled him to 'repent of his errors...'"???
"Errors"???
17 abuse victims???
Some probably abused multiple times.
And he called what this pedophile perp did "errors???"
My favorite is the “PottyTrained” one.
Ist class by 12, that’s the goal. But as we live around lots of mountains, with lots of monthly camp outs, it will most definitely be ‘uphill’ from here. ;-)
One man does not a pattern make.
Just for clarification there was a really, really big flood between Eden and the labeling of rivers on current maps. It's quite likely the entire topography of the world changed during Noah's time. I'm betting Eden was not between the currently labeled Tigris and Euphrates.
This, of course, does not support the Mormon theory of creation any more than it supports the Zoroastrianism creation story.
That may be, but it’s not universal. Like you said, it may be in some areas and as this article and some FReeper Scouters are pointing out, every unit can decide who they let in or not.
No, they don’t have to listen to Mormon teachings, scripture. They can opt out of church related activities that the Mormon Cubs/Scouts attend and just attend Cub/Scout related activities.
“Jamborees” (Camporees ?) run by and for Mormons would probably have a Mormon component to it. Attending such an event is optional if invited. Just be prepared (HA!) to abide by their rules for their event.
Usually, when it comes to interdenominational Scouting, there is a pretty good effort to focus on Scouting, not religion.
On Sundays, the Mormons are usually back home and any other Scouts still out will usually have a “Scouts Own” service.
As the Jewish Scouts would be honoring their Sabbath on Saturday. There is always some effort made to accommodate the various practices of Scouts from the various religions.
LOL!
Better get in shape then “old man”. ;^)
I found out how bad I was the months of Aug-Sep.
We hiked to Minaret Lakes (10,000’) in Aug and then two weeks later in Sep. we climbed Mt. Whitney (14,500’) two weeks after Whitney we hiked up to Treasure Lakes (10,000’).
Ugh, I hurt for days afterwards.
Just make sure to have fun. If it ain’t fun, you’re doing it wrong! ;^)
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