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Michael R. Ash is on the management team for FAIR (the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research — FAIRLDS.org) and is the author of "Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One's Testimony In the Face of Criticism and Doubt" (ShakenFaithSyndrome.com) and "Of Faith and Reason: 80 Evidences Supporting the Prophet Joseph Smith" (OfFaithandReason.com). Michael's column, "Challenging Issues, Keeping the Faith," appears Mondays on MormonTimes.com.
1 posted on 10/18/2010 10:45:58 AM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: magritte

Unnecessary but allowed vitriol ping


2 posted on 10/18/2010 10:49:22 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...
jaredite barge
3 posted on 10/18/2010 10:54:17 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: T Minus Four
Michael R. Ash is on the management team for FAIR (the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research — FAIRLDS.org)

That explains everything!

4 posted on 10/18/2010 11:03:21 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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While the tale of "shining stones" has elicited the laughs of critics, we find that the story is perfectly at home in ancient lore

...along with lepreachans, cyclops [cyclopsez?], goblins, dwarfs, unicorns, spinning straw to gold, magic beans and fairies.

It should start with "Once upon a time..."

6 posted on 10/18/2010 11:12:16 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Instead of pretending to BE Christians, why not actually BECOME Christians?)
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To: T Minus Four; ejonesie22; Godzilla

Glass would break, the lord replied,
______________________________________________

GLASS ???

Hundreds of years before it was invented ???

and the mormon lord could not make a glass that wouldnt break ???


7 posted on 10/18/2010 11:25:08 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

they couldn’t light fires
___________________________________________

Why not ???

EPA would fine them ???

How were Noah and his family able to have fires on their ASrk but Joey Smith kept his ficticious characters freezing and without cooked food

and in the dark without light from oil lamps ???


8 posted on 10/18/2010 11:28:52 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

the brother of Jared was familiar with an ancient tradition of Noah and his illuminated stones. One of those ancient sources (unknown in 1830)
___________________________________________

What illuminated stones ???

And how come Joey Smiths characters back 2,000 years ago knew something that was not known in 1830 ???

Was the knowledge forgotten, lost ???

Still in need of ‘restoring’ ???

If it was an ancient source then why was it unknown in 1830 and yet Joey Smith who was writingt in 1830 seemed to know it ???

DFUH DUH and again I say DUH

Plus if Joey Smith had ever picked up a Bible that was an ancient source also containing the story of Noah and how God told him to build the Ark, he would have found out for hiomself how stupid he really was...


9 posted on 10/18/2010 11:36:21 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

When the Book of Mormon was published, there was not a single translation of the Palestine Talmud available in any modern language.
__________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Did Hugh convenintly forget that Joey Smith was learning Hebrew at one time ???

Or did the mormon god not about to read Hebrew ???

Or is he just admitting that Joey Smith wrote his book of mormon without doing any research or proper sourcing of its contents ???


10 posted on 10/18/2010 11:42:20 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

When the Book of Mormon was published, there was not a single translation of the Palestine Talmud available in any modern language.
__________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Did Hugh convenintly forget that Joey Smith was learning Hebrew at one time ???

Or was the mormon god not able to read Hebrew ???

Or is he just admitting that Joey Smith wrote his book of mormon without doing any research or proper sourcing of its contents ???


11 posted on 10/18/2010 11:43:03 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four

so the lord turned the problem back over to the brother of Jared.

it was the brother of Jared, not the lord, who suggested the idea of the shining stones.
___________________________________________

So the mormon lord was helpless and needed the help of mere mortals...

well after all he was just a man himself at one time...

Thats why its best to believe in and worship the LORD Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible...

God always knows how to do things...


13 posted on 10/18/2010 11:49:05 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: T Minus Four; Godzilla; All
And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the mannerof barges which ye have hiterto built...And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me. And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish. And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hold and receive air." (Ether 2:16, 18-20)

Hmmm...just a "few" original obvous-as-day design problems...like...
access to air;
lack of light;
steering

Of course, Ash, citing the Book of Mormon, says the light problem was taken care of...the problem is that the Mormon god gives the original design for this thing with his own personal instructions. And then had to hear a complaint from the builders about "hey, what about light?"

These were all things clearly NOT addressed from the get-go; and weren't addressed by the builders as they went along despite the obviousness of these problems. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith & his Book of Mormon presents his god as a forgetful or neglectful designer -- a bumbling, afterthought Mormon god who was fortunate he had a "consultant" like Jared to catch the divine designer's fatal flaws.

(And, as if Jared was some "brilliant" ship planner, material gathered, 8-vessel constructor in the first place. I mean, how could one work on something for months-on-end, & not notice its superb suffocation & dark-as-night internal features? As one Ph.D author asked: Is it sensible that all of these shipbuilders... waited until the end to realize, Oh, wait! We forgot that our animals will need to breathe in here.) Source: Jaredite Ship-Building Technology

BTW, I highly encourage people to go to the above link and look at the 40 questions this author raises...particularly given all the animals that were taken with them.

And I didn't include Ether 2:17, which says all of the sides (including top & bottom) were "tight like a dish" -- meaning like a ball just rolling on the ocean at the total mercy of winds, waves, currents, etc!...and then presents the Mormon god as "solving" the air/light problem by opening up a hole in the bottom of the barge!

So let's summarize the "problems" with this craft that were not addressed in the original divine "ark-"itectural plan:
1. Its overall poor original "God-breathed" design (2:15-19) [Would a god really give such poor, 'can't-help-but-miss' personal instructions for such a fatally-flawed craft from a design perspective?]
2. Its poor original "God-breathed" design still left unaddressed before departing
3. Its poor original light design problem
4. Lack of steering...at total mercy of waves & wind (Ether 2:17)
5. Its designed upside-down ventures (Ether 2:24-25; 6:5-7)
6. Its poor animal-care features and "gameplan" of how to deal with animal poop and animal smells (ventilation issue) and even how much food would be required for such animals. See Jaredite Ship-Building Technology for a complete run-down of questions dealing with this aspect.

18 posted on 10/18/2010 12:12:53 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: T Minus Four; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

Ping to the inmans!


19 posted on 10/18/2010 12:21:14 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: T Minus Four

Does this have anything to do with Obama going on the MythBuster’s show?


20 posted on 10/18/2010 12:29:30 PM PDT by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: All

Undecided readers,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There’s an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the “quotation” the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no delemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn’t been addressed a hundred times before.

Sometimes they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever “issue” they seem to be “revealing” or “exposing”. I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the “ahah” moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there’s nothing new here. It’s all been addressed many times before.

Here’s a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the “issues” brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here’s more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/


21 posted on 10/18/2010 12:51:51 PM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: All

Undecided readers,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There’s an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the “quotation” the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no delemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn’t been addressed a hundred times before.

Sometimes they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever “issue” they seem to be “revealing” or “exposing”. I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the “ahah” moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there’s nothing new here. It’s all been addressed many times before.

Here’s a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the “issues” brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here’s more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/


22 posted on 10/18/2010 12:53:55 PM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: T Minus Four
Ya just gotta LOVE that HOLE in the BOTTOM of the boat, too!


http://packham.n4m.org/ships.htm

40 posted on 10/18/2010 3:26:48 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: T Minus Four

“This precious stone supposedly glowed for 12 months inside the Ark and would dim during the day so that Noah knew if it was day or night outside. “

I would have thought it to brighten during the day and dim at night???


70 posted on 10/19/2010 7:37:56 AM PDT by SeeSac
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