Posted on 10/04/2010 11:50:44 AM PDT by GonzoII
Scenario:
It's nine o'clock on Saturday morning. You've taken your car to the local garage for new tires and an oil change. Bill, the manager, introduces himself with a broad smile and a firm handshake. As he finishes the paperwork and you're signing on the dotted line, you notice him eyeing the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe on your T-shirt. Bill asks, "I gather from your T-shirt that you're Catholic. I was raised Catholic, and I respect Catholics, but . . ." (You were waiting for that infamous conjunction.) "I now have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, one that's not dependent on being a member of a church or denomination."
He smiles widely. You nod politely as he tells you how he accepted Jesus Christ as his "personal Lord and Savior," how he was "born again," and how he now attends a Bible teaching church "where the Word is really preached." As he hands you your receipt he pops the question: "Have you been born again?"
Your response:
As a matter of fact, I have. In fact, I was born again the Bible way. But before we cover that, I have to tell you that I find it odd that you left the Catholic Church in order to find a personal relationship with Jesus. I have a very personal relationship with Jesus through prayer as well as through the Church and the sacraments He instituted. He gave us these gifts so we can know with certainty the truth He came to preach and experience the divine life of grace in our lives. My relationship with Jesus couldn't be any more personal." Bill furrows his brow. "Huh. But I thought you were Catholic."
(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...
Romans 10:9 states it very clearly...”If you confess with you mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the grave, then you shall be saved.”
While baptism is the commanded next step it is not the “saving” next step. Confession of faith and internalized active belief are the saving steps!
I saw nothing in my Bible about infants being baptized by the disciples, Jesus or John the Baptist only adults or folks who had attained the age where they knew from right from wrong and had been convicted for their sins!
They’re three two reasons that the church baptizes infants:
Infant mortatlity was high in the early church.
Baptized infants were counted as members which translated into power.
The Catholic Catechism makes it rather clear that they believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation. Including the idea that if a person dies before being baptized one is to pray and hope for that persons salvation.
I never get in discussions with strangers about my or their religions beliefs. If someone attempts to bring it up I politely deflect the question. If they persist, I end the conversation.
Romans is addressed to Christians, all of whom had already been baptized. That’s the context of Rom 10:9. It’s not giving you an alternative to baptism, it assumes baptism already.
Never understood this claim by Protestants, to me it's like predestination, just as no one knows for sure if they are one of the predestined, no Protestant can know if they have the "faith", or if they are really have an "internalized active belief", both requisites are undefined. A Protestant can partake in all kinds of mortal sins, as always defined by the Catholic Church, like divorce and re-marriage, use of contraceptives, lying, stealing, hate of his neighbors, even homosexuality (there are actually ordained ministers that preach proudly their homosexuality), etc., and all say that they have "the faith and have internalized active belief".
A Protestant says: "I'm saved by Confession of faith and internalized active belief".
The Catholic Church responds:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
I'll side with Scripture on that one:
1 Pet 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also
Note the the analogy of the actual water of the flood in context with the statement about baptism ---real water.
Why don't we show those verses in context?
1 Peter 3:18-22
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
As far as no one knows for sure if they are one of the predestined, no Protestant can know if they have the "faith", I must disagree completely. Although I do not believe we are born "predestined" for heaven or hell, we certainly can know from Scripture that we have been saved and that we can KNOW we have eternal life. See:
I John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Did not in the Acts of the Apostles, it was said that a whole household got baptized? That had to include infants as well?
There are scripture verses that connect each of the following to salvation: faith, confession, repentance, and baptism.
Do we pick which we agree with and pass over the others cafeteria style?
Each Protestant is just one person making up their own religion as they go along, they're all winging it, to themselves they are more infallible than a pope, they are their own god. Each Protestant says, I will not serve, I am God.
You know nothing about infallibility, predestination, or the Catholic Church.
No point in discussing anything about the true Faith with Protestants. If I were to correct the misunderstanding in ONE person for ONE question of life, there would still be millions of other errors to deal with in that ONE person.
Your beliefs are unique to you, as Protestantism has no beliefs that require adherence, each Protestant basically invents his own church of one. That is not the case with Catholics. The Catholic Church has doctrines that are unchangeable, and a Catholic MUST believe them, or he is not a Catholic. PERIOD.
A Protestant can call themselves a Christian in a state of grace with a direct line to the Holy Ghost, even if they don't believe Christ is God.
A Catholic is a heretic if he denies one dogma. A Catholic who dies with one mortal sin (heresy is a mortal sin) goes to hell.
Protestantism is like a body care system that teaches that one must eat and exercise to live better. But they leave it up to the person to figure out the rest.
Catholicism is like a body care system that tells you that you must eat good food, what foods to eat, and in what quantities, and what foods MUST NEVER be eaten. It says that you must exercise, how much to exercise, and exactly what exercises to do, and which you MUST never do. And if you don't follow the most important teachings which are vital to your survival, you are no longer a Catholic.
There is NO ‘born again’ in the Greek, it is ‘born from above’. And NONE will see the Kingdom of God unless they are born of woman just like Christ set the example. And NOT all that are born from above will enter the Kingdom of God... but that is the choice they make freely.
The new testament over and over again makes it plain that baptism is how our sins are remitted. It is the point where God acts on us and forgives us.
The televangelist gospel is not the gospel of the new testament.
I never get in discussions with strangers about my or their religions beliefs
Ashamed of the Gospel and of Jesus Christ, or do you just wish to disobey the primary directive for all Believers?
Or are you of a false/pagan religion or agnostic?
Do we pick which we agree with and pass over the others cafeteria style?
I prefer the proper exegetical study of the Scriptures, not the eisegetical version of the Papists.
Q: How many people did Jesus Christ or Paul baptize?
Q: So does your Church immolate people upon salvation?
Luke 3:16 "John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." (ref: Acts: 1:4,5; 2:1-4; 10:44-48; 11:15-17 etc.)
Q: Tell me about the baptism of the thief on the Cross, or of the Old Testament saints we read about in Hebrews 11 Hall of Faith - or are they burning in Hell?
“Q: How many people did Jesus Christ or Paul baptize?”
Paul, the author of Romans 6:3-10, at Corinth baptized at least Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas (I believe Paul said he couldn't remember if he had baptized anyone else there); beyond that, I'm not sure how many he personally baptized in other areas as opposed to letting others conduct the baptisms.
“Q: So does your Church immolate people upon salvation?”
“Luke 3:16 “John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” (ref: Acts: 1:4,5; 2:1-4; 10:44-48; 11:15-17 etc.)”
Our congregation does not thrown anyone into the fire. The only ones I am aware of in the New Testament of being “baptized with fire” were the apostles on the day of Pentecost after the resurrection when tongues of fire were seen upon them.
“Q: Tell me about the baptism of the thief on the Cross, or of the Old Testament saints we read about in Hebrews 11 Hall of Faith - or are they burning in Hell?”
Was the thief on the cross living during the law of Moses or after the institution of the church on the day of Pentecost when Peter gave the first gospel sermon?
During that first gospel sermon recorded in Acts chap. 2, the Apostle Peter, when asked what the crowd should do in regard to their sins, responded as follows:
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Now a question for you:
Q: When Philip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch, what prompted the eunuch, out of the blue, to be asked to be baptized? Why, when the eunuch made this off-the-wall request (after all, how could “preaching Jesus” have anything to do with baptism?), did Philip not reproach the eunuch, telling him that the question smacked of legalism that that all the eunuch needed to do was to recite “the sinner's prayer”?
Acts 8:
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31”How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”[e]
34The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?”[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea..
I'll be happy to discuss this further with you but it may have to wait until I'm off work.
No, you prefer your own interpretation, that's all, you are winging it.
The clearest command in the New Testament from Jesus Christ was to the absolute requirement of baptism for salvation. If that's not clear, then the more obscure Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, AND REALLY ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT is good for nothing.
Baptism is simple to perform, and takes like 10 seconds. Anyone that does not get baptized because they hard headedly say it's not required, are their own god of a fool.
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