Posted on 10/04/2010 11:50:44 AM PDT by GonzoII
I take that back. Since the most severe tortures of Hell are reserved for those who are baptized, Catholics priests first, then Catholic laity. If one is not going to live the faith (the only true faith, Catholicism), they likely are better off not baptized. God's grace works even in hell, as God himself in His providence will place a person in a place where he would not receive the knowledge of the requirement of being a baptized Catholic, in order to spare the person, who God knows he will reject the faith, form a deeper eternal suffering in hell.
Therefore, maybe you shouldn't get baptized.
I take that back. Since the most severe tortures of Hell are reserved for those who are baptized, Catholics priests first, then Catholic laity. If one is not going to live the faith (the only true faith, Catholicism), they likely are better off not baptized. God's providence and mercy works even unto hell. God in His providence will place a person in this world some place where he would not receive the knowledge of the requirement of being a baptized Catholic (India, China, Africa, Russia, USA, England), in order to spare the person, who God knows will reject Catholicism, from a deeper eternal suffering in hell.
Therefore, maybe you shouldn't get baptized.
“Did not in the Acts of the Apostles, it was said that a whole household got baptized? That had to include infants as well?”
I don’t think so, you have to think about other scriptures in regards to baptism. you must first believe in Jesus, example: Ethiopian Eunuch asked what prevents me from being Baptized, response was “If you Believe”.
I don’t think infants believe.
Also purpose of baptism is that it’s a work of the Lord Jesus, how he washes away our sin, (not a work of us). I don’t think any infant has any sins to wash away.
hear, believe, repent, baptized, confess are all related to our salvation, just because one passage does not mention one of these does not mean it not relevant.
1. it’s a personal thing to me. I extend others the same courtesy.
2. in my experience, those discussions almost never turn out well.
1. it’s a personal thing to me. I extend others the same courtesy.
2. in my experience, those discussions almost never turn out well.
sorry about the double post.
Step One:
Go get your Bible from the back seat of your car and ask Bill to show you where in John 3 Jesus mentions "accepting Him as your personal Lord and Savior." He wont be able to because the passage doesn't say anything like that. Explain that he's reading something into a text that is simply not there.
"The Bible way of getting born again," you explain, "is by being baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Anything else is unbiblical." Now ask him to look at the context of chapters one through three of the Gospel of John.
First, Christ Himself is baptized (John 1:31-34; cf. Matt. 3:16). When He is baptized, the heavens are opened and the Holy Spirit descends upon Him in the form of a dove. Obviously, Jesus didn't need to be baptized. In fact, St. John the Baptist exclaimed that he needed to be baptized by Christ (cf. Matt. 3:14). The Lord was baptized to show us the way of salvation (cf. Luke 1:77), the way the heavens are opened to us, and the way Holy Spirit descends upon us.
Second, He performs His first miracle in John 2:1-11 by transforming water into wine. Notice, that He used water from "six stone jars . . . for the Jewish rites of purification." According to the Septuagint (Greek) canon of the Old Testament, these ritual purification waters were called baptismoi, in essence, the Old Testaments "baptismal" waters (cf. Numbers 19:9-19). The Old Testament rites and sacrifices were only "a shadow of the good things to come" (Heb. 10:1). They could never take away sins. Scripture scholars point out that the number six was often used to denote imperfection. Christ transformed the Old Testament water of "ritual washings" into wine, a symbol of New Covenant perfection. (cf. Joel 3:18, Matt. 9:17).
Third, in John 3:22, immediately after Christ's "born again" discourse to Nicodemus, what does He do? He and His disciples go out into the countryside and begin to baptize. Also, in John 4:1-2, His disciples alone are seen baptizing. The Lord most likely baptized His disciples (though this can't be proven, only inferred from the text), and then they went out and baptized the multitudes.
Let's recap the progression of events in the Gospel of John: Christ is baptized, He elevates and sanctifies the waters of baptism, He gives the "how to be born again" discourse, He baptizes the disciples and commissions them to go out and baptize. Clearly, in view of the context of these passages, Christ's words in John 3 mean that baptism is the way one is born again.
Saying that the "water" spoken of in John 3:5 is amniotic fluid goes way beyond stretching the context of this passage. John 3:5 ("No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit") is not describing two events, but one. For example, the text doesn't imply something like: "No one can enter the kingdom of God without being first born of water and then born again of spirit." He is speaking of the event of water baptism, the effects of which were depicted for us in His own baptism: He went down into the water, the Holy Spirit descended on Him, the voice of the Father was heard saying, "This is My beloved Son, with Whom I am well pleased." This is what happens at the sacrament of baptism. We are made right with God, justified, and put into a son/Father relationship.
Step Three:
Bill thinks for a second. "I think you're confusing spiritual baptism with water baptism. Water baptism can't save you. 1 Corinthians 12:12 says that it is the Spirit that baptizes us into Christ, not some man."
"Yes, I agree," you begin. "The Holy Spirit does incorporate us into Christ, just as the Holy Spirit convince[s] the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment (John 16:8). But don't forget that the Holy Spirit also uses human instruments to convey the message. For example, St. Paul said, How shall they hear without a preacher? (Rom. 10:14). The same is true for baptism. It is an action of grace performed by the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the human action of the one who baptizes."
"In Acts 2:38 St. Peter exclaimed, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 22:16, Ananias declared to Saul, who had already professed faith in Christ as Lord in verse 10, Why delay? Get up and be baptized and your sins washed away, calling on His name. 1 Peter 3:20-21 says a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The passage is clear: Baptism now saves you. You can tell that Bill is shaken by this. He's not as assertive and confident as he was just a short time ago. He says, "But Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace (not by baptism) you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
"Exactly," you respond. "That is the description of the initial grace of salvation that we know comes through baptism." Just then, a mechanic brings your car keys to Bill. As you walk together toward the car, you can almost see the wheels turning in his mind. Clearly, he's reflecting on your answers to his questions.
You decide to take the extra step. "You know, I've got an extra copy of an apologetics booklet here in my car that Id like to leave with you. It goes into greater depth on the sacrament of baptism and what the Bible says about it. It contains many more Bible verses and even has quotes from the early Church Fathers that show what the early Christians believed about baptismal regeneration. Would you be willing to read it? Maybe we could get together and discuss this issue again sometime."
A moments pause. "Why not," Bill says. "I've enjoyed our conversation, even though I don't agree with everything you said. One things for sure, though. I see I need to study this subject more carefully. Well have to continue this discussion."
"Yes, Id like that," you smile as you shake hands. "See you in about 3,000 miles."
Take the starch out of your collar.
Pleeeeaaaasssseeee! Wow!
The Lemmings are stampeding down the high cliffs like a waterfall, and they want to hear only pretty words.
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