Posted on 09/26/2010 2:35:35 PM PDT by NYer
If God is Love, why is there Hell? And why is it eternal? In a word there is Hell because of respect. God has made us free and respects that freedom. Our freedom is absolutely necessary if we are to love. Now suppose a young man wanted a young lady to love him. Suppose again he found a magic potion with which to lace her drink. So she drinks and suddenly, presto., she “loves” him! Is it love? No, it’s chemicals. Love, to be love, has to be free. The yes of love is only meaningful if we were free to say no. God invites us to love him. Love has to be free. There has to be a hell. Ther has to be a real alternative, a real choice. God will not force us to love him or to come to heaven with him.
But wait a minute, doesn’t everyone want to go to heaven? Yes, but it often a heaven as they define it, not the real heaven. Many people’s understanding of heaven is a very egocentric thing where they will be happy on their terms, where what pleases merely them will be available in abundance. But the real heaven is the Kingdom of God in all its fullness. Truth be told, while everyone wants to go to a heaven as they define it, NOT everyone wants to live in the Kingdom of God in all its fullness. Consider some of the following examples:
Now my point is this: If heaven isn’t just of our own design but things like these are features of the real heaven, the real Kingdom of God, then doesn’t it seem clear that there actually are many who don’t want to go to heaven? You see everyone wants to go to heaven (the heaven of their own design), but NOT everyone wants to live in the Kingdom, which is what heaven really is. Now God will not force any one to live where they do not want to live. He will not force anyone to love Him or what he loves. We are free to choose his kingdom or not.
Perhaps a brief story will illustrate my point. I once knew a woman in one of my parishes who in many way was very devout. She went to daily Mass and prayed the rosary most days. But there was one thing about her that was very troubling, she couldn’t stand African Americans. She often told me, “I can’t stand Black People! They’re moving into this neighborhood and ruining everything! I wish they’d go away.” I remember scolding her a number of times for this sort of talk. But one day I thought I’d make it plain. I said, “You know you don’t really want to go to heaven.” She said, “Of course I do Father. God and the Blessed Mother are there. I want to go.” “No you won’t be happy there,” I said. “Why? Want are you talking about Father?” “Well you see there are Black people in heaven and you’ve said you can’t stand to be around them. So I’m afraid you wouldn’t be happy there. And God won’t make you live some place where you are not happy. So I don’t think you want to go to heaven.” I think she go the message because I noticed she started to improve.
But that’s just it, isn’t it? God will not force us to live in the Kingdom if we really don’t want or like what that kingdom is. We can’t just invent our own heaven. Heaven is a real place and has contours and realities of its own that we can’t just brush aside. Either we accept heaven as it is or we ipso facto choose to live apart from it and God. So Hell has to be. It is not a pleasant place but I suppose the saddest thing about the souls in that are there is that they wouldn’t be happy in heaven anyway. A pretty sad and tragic plight, not to be happy anywhere. But understand this too. God has not utterly rejected even the souls in Hell. Somehow he still provides for their basic needs. They continue to exist and thus God continues to sustain them with what ever is required to provide for that existence. He does not anihilate them or snuff them out. He respects their wishes to live apart from the kingdom and its values. He loves them but respects their choice.
But why is Hell eternal? Here I think we encounter a mystery about ourselves. God seems to be teaching us that there comes a day when our decisions are fixed forever. For now we always have the possibility of changing our mind so the idea of a permanent decision seems strange to us. But I think that those of us who are a bit older can testify that as we get older we get a little more set in our ways and it’s harder to change. Perhaps this is a little foretaste of a time when our decisions will be forever fixed and we will never change. The Fathers of the Church used an image of pottery to teach on this. Think of wet clay on a potters wheel. As long as the clay is moist and still on the wheel it can be shaped and reshaped. But once it is put in the kiln, in the fire, its shape is fixed forever. And so it is with us that when we appear before God who is a Holy Fire, our fundamental shape will be forever fixed, our decisions final. For now this is mysterious to us and we only sense it vaguely but since heaven and hell are eternal, it seems this forever fixed state is in our future.
So here is the best I can do on a difficult topic. But Hell has to be. It’s about God’s respect for us. It’s about our freedom and summons to love. It’s about the real heaven. It’s about what we really want in the end. The following video is Fr. Robert Barron’s take on the matter.
One discussion on this is in The Great Divorce
by C.S. Lewis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Divorce
It is the individual person's decision to refuse to come to
God's presence that "seals the deal"
As an agnostic, what do I not get?
Although, this thread brings me closer.
Have you even read the bible? Satan is referred to many times in the Old and New Testament.
Jesus certainly refers to Hell as a firey place but that does not mean it is a literal fire. He is just trying to come up with the best way of describing horrific torment and being on fire I think is most peoples idea of the worst kind of pain imaginable.
I have no doubts that Hell exists but I think there are different levels of it and conversly, likely different levels of heaven. However, the theme of this article is spot on, many will reject heaven because humility, chastity, obedience, kindness, compassion, forgiveness is just not their thing, in other words, its just not as much fun as cruelty, revenge, perversion, lust, mendacity etc. People clearly make this decision in life and it carries on into the afterlife.
The best description I have read of Heaven and Hell and the decisionmaking process that leads to either is C.S. Lewis’s “The Great Divorce.” The City of God by St. Augustine also is good but a difficult read, at least it was for me.
So here is the best I can do on a difficult topic.
What a load of bunk...This guy has no business teaching anything Christian...Leading people away from Jesus...
HEll is a real place...Where the SOULS of men burn forever with a fire that can not be quenched...
Apparently they wouldn't let this priest read the scripture even while he was in seminary...
I will use Hebrews 7 as an observation on Liturgy Priesthood; the question then from Hebrews 7 is this : since the Jewish Priesthood consisted of Jews from Levi only, which Jewish tribe does the Catholic Priesthood descend from: Levi, or of Jesus ?, or maybe Judah, for which Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood:
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
quote There is the Lamb on a throne-like altar. It’s all very much like the Mass
I will use Hebrews 7 again for an observation on the Lamb on a throne like alter; the question the from Hebrews 10 is this : how many daily sacrifices did God designate for us today?
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 7:24 But this man, because he continueth [for]ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he [Christ Jesus] did once, when he offered up himself. 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Hebrews 10 also speaks precisely regarding how many sacrifices of Christ are required for the forgiveness of sins:
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL [TIME]. 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL [TIME].
Hebrews10:14 For by one offering he [Jesus Christ] hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
What is an honest reply in regards to these perfect Scriptures? Why do we still need a Levitical priesthood in continual daily sacrificed? Why is Christ continually sacrificed WHEN Hebrews said that we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL [TIME].
So according to this article is that there are two choices: BURN for all eternity... or CHURCH for all eternity. Wow... do I want to be shot or stabbed to death? So many choices. I can’t imagine why more and more people turn away from organized faith altogether. When there is no good choice, how can anyone with a straight face call THIS, free will?
Any woman who lived in a household where the husband told her: “Love me unconditionally on my terms submissive to my every whim and you’ll not be making any demands whatsoever to me, forever; or die the most terrible unimaginably painful death.” would call that domestic abuse... and they would be right.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The House of David. Jesus Christ instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper.
Matt. 3:12 and Luke 3:17 - John the Baptist said the Lord will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. This unquenchable fire is the state of eternal separation from God, which the Church has called "hell" for 2,000 years.
Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Apparently, you need to re-familiarize yourself with scripture.
Does God give them a second chance in the next life or are they also doomed to hell?My brother has been an agnostic his whole life, and my BIL, an RC priest once told me, "Don't worry so much about your brother. He has faith." My husband and I would refer to my brother as an agnostic saint, so I knew what my BIL was saying, however, as Tax-Chick says, we just don't know. Best to err on the side of caution.
Wow NYer! That was great! Thanks for posting this!
Why I'm Catholic (Sola Scriptura leads atheist to Catholic Church)
Somewhere, St. Paul talks about salvation’s being “first” for believers, implying that there’s something else out there. Only God knows. This is the appropriate application of “judge not”: we can’t know how God will deal with any individual soul. We can judge right or wrong actions according to Biblical standards.
Quote: The House of David. Jesus Christ instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper.
Interesting, I never heard of a JEWISH Catholic Priest. David was Jewish. Jesus Christ was Jewish. Based upon your answer, then all Catholic Priest must be Jewish descendants of David and Jesus Christ. Your genealogy, by this reasoning, must be Jewish.
Unquenchable fire is only separation from God??? Shirley you jest...
Doesn't matter what your church calls Hell...It's what God calls Hell that matters...
Thanks for that one too - much appreciated!
Auguste and Joseph Lemann - Jewish Twins who became Catholic Priests. You can read their story here.
Hermann Cohen - World-Class Pianist and Protege of Liszt, was another. You can read his story here.
One of the most recent was Jean Cardinal Lustiger, the Archbishop of Paris who died a few years ago. At the funeral, his cousin, Arno Lustiger, recited the Kaddish at his funeral. His second cousin Jonas Moses-Lustiger read a psalm in Hebrew and placed on the coffin a jar of earth that had been gathered on the Mount of Olives.
Google “Alphonse Ratisbone”.
So you found a Catholic Priest who was a descendant of David of Judah and Jewish. Interesting discovery, but misses the context entirely about the Levitical priesthood begin Jewish...
So does that now prove that because a few Catholic Priests are found to be descendants of David of Judah and Jewish - now does that prove that the Levitical priesthood has now established in these few Jewish Catholic Priests and passes on their Jewish blood upon all Levitical priest Catholics?
If a new priesthood was instituted by Jesus Christ, then this priesthood must be by definition above the level of Christ's priesthood, of the order of Melchisedec; but Christ said regarding HIS priesthood: it continueth [for]ever, [and] hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Now Christ Jesus's priesthood has performed these things: Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL [TIME].
I have yet to have a Catholic answer correctly about Hebrews 10:10.
Please forgive me and understand if I suggest something that you yourself did not say. I am going for an omnibus post, and I can't hit all targets with one bullet. Work with me, okay? I don't mean you have to agree. If I meant that I would just dictate. I DO mean, try to look at it another way, even if after doing so you still think it's nuts.
The basic problem is the problem of radical monotheism. What do I mean? (If you find out, please tell me.)
Let us postulate ONE God, who created everything that is.
If we do so, we cannot reasonably say that God is, for example, sometimes good and sometimes evil. To do so would be to postulate some standard independent of God, by which He can be judged. And that makes Him not one supreme God, but rather subject to a standard more exalted than He.
Consequently, (remember, you're working with me) there is no good thing, no capital 'G' "Good", that does not have it's origin in Him.
Now let's look at the Fall Story AND the Creation of Man story. Man is made "a living soul" when God's breath (or wind, or spirit) is breathed into a body. It is the union of animating breath and flesh that makes a human. Importantly, without the Divine "flatus" (one of my favorite terms) all that's there is a body which will tend to fall apart.
IF man rejects God, and if God somehow can be described as "honoring" Man's choice, then Man is rejecting what keeps him not just "alive" but "together."
And the story would seem to confirm that. Adam blames Eve; Eve blames the serpent -- they INSTANTLY disavow personal integrity -- which is just another word for being "together with yourself." And ultimately they die, and fall apart.
I get the impression that for some whom I am addressing, it seems that God made an arbitrary rule and severely punished breaking that rule. Against that I am suggesting that, whatever the intrinsic properties of the fruit of the tree, God had given Man an opportunity both to intend and to act to maintain a positive allegiance to God. Man rejected God.
IF God is to honor man's choice, then it is not a punishment pulled out of some cosmic sack o' punishment that God inflicts. It is nothing more than the reality of what man chose.
A limited analogy would be that if you choose to drink poison, God does not arbitrarily inflict a painful death on you. He honors your choice, and your choice was to do something which leads to a painful death.
Consider for a moment the alternative: If God were NOT to honor your choice, then when you gave way to rage and shot someone, God would turn aside the bullet. It's nice because the person you shot at is not hurt or killed.
But there is nothing like freedom there. You simply cannot, in this case, make an effectual choice against God.
So, what it means to affirm one and only one God who is the origin of all good, is to affirm that without God there is no good.
So the Devil, Satan, our ancient Adversary, is not, cannot be, the simple opposite to God. The Devil is a created entity. His opposite, for us Christians, is not God, but the archangel Michael.
This point is probably uniquely Catholic (and maybe Orthodox). Ideas, we think, are real. And because God thinks them, they are eternal. Consequently (skipping several steps) the "faculty" which perceives and deals with ideas (like triangularity or justice) is eternal. Otherwise it would not appreciate ideas. (I know this is not a popular view, but I think it is one of the few coherent views.)
So angels and 'rational animals' (humans, and maybe ETs, who knows?) are created with an eternal aspect. Angels have no body to fall apart, so they are entirely eternal. Fallen angels are the Devil and the demons. They exercised their will at the instant of their creation. Some chose God, some chose enmity with God.
The entire "future history" of angels, demons, and humans is the "coming true" of their choices.
Consider: if you are a notorious liar, God is not arbitrarily punishing you if you are not believed and if you yourself get confused about the truth. That is what you chose.
The paradigmatic overeating glutton chooses less and less satisfaction with more and more heartburn and other pains. He requires more and more exotic and extreme gustatory experiences to gratify him. What is the natural playing out of that choice? What other than a perpetually unsatisfied appetite plagued by pain?
Many of the Christians on this thread know I am devoted to Dante. That is because the punishments he envisions in hell are not arbitrary tortures inflicted on the disobedient. It's not even a matter or "the punishment fits the crime." In Dante's Inferno, the punishment is nothing other than the crime itself, revealed in all its horror.
So, finally, the idea of God as a punitive and jealous husband only goes so far. We can envision the wife having a happy life without the husband. But we cannot envision happiness without happiness. And, to us at least, God is happiness and the only source of enduring happiness.
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