Are there any Greek Orthodox members here?(vanity)

[HungarianGypsy]

I am interested in learning more about what the Greek Orthodox church members believe.

[muawiyah]

You'll hear African Americans make an argument that the disadvantages of slavery still have an impact on modern Americans ~ and, to a substantial degree they are correct. If your Great Grandparents were illiterate, and did not pass down a love of learning to their children, and they to theirs (your parents), then even if you get a college degree you might well be missing out on much of what your culture (which includes church/religion) offers you.

Fellow I worked with found the Greek church lacking in interest since there weren't any Bible study groups there ~ he didn't know that of course until he'd started attending a Protestant church that had lots of Bible study groups. It opened his eyes. It may be time to start your very own home mission (snicker). My friend did something like that and ended up with his wife and daughter going to his church, and still attending Greek services.

[newberger]

Hi,

I have been an Orthodox Christian for the past 12+ years having converted from an evangelical background. I’m now 65.

I’m a member of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) but all of the Orthodox churches teach the same theology. In fact, here in Oregon we have quite a cooperative relationship with many parishes of other jurisdictions (Greek, Antiochian, Serbian, etc.)

I don’t what kinds of questions you would have so I won’t say much in this post except:

1) The Holy Trinity is totally central to our belief.

2) We are thoroughly sacramental.

3) Our beliefs are summarized neatly in the Nicene creed.

4) Not having a history that goes through the struggle that the Western Church had such as the middle ages, scholasticism, reformation, etc., we tend to have a much less legal / courtroom approach to understanding salvation.

5) We do NOT follow the teachings of Augustine on predestination and original sin.

6) Our theology is worship centered rather than being viewed in academic terms (although we do have some excellent seminaries,)

Beyond that, I’d be glad to respond to questions.

Paul (aka Newberger)

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***How to put this ~ I’ve encountered some Orthodox on FR, but not many. Haven’t encountered all that many members of the Christian Church (the Disciples of Christ, Christian, and Church of Christ***

Did you miss all those Campbellite wars we had on FR several years ago? We had some who tried to run roughshod over everyone here.

[muawiyah]

There still weren't a lot of individuals ~ the Church of Christ crowd in the Mid-South (we call them "organless Christians") showed up though. Had about a dozen people. For the most part they don't get on the religious threads anymore. I think their branch is pulling back from worldly involvement again.

They do that from time to time, and tightly control membership ~ almost Apostolic too ~ not quite but close.

The independents have been busy reorganizing ~ so much for being "independent" ~ and you occasionally see some news about this or that congregation doing something Orthodox do.

The Disciples (my branch) tend to not ever come to FR ~ 'cause most of them are kneejerk, mindnumbed, robotlike leftwingtards who hate Conservatives.

[kosta50]

I see the local church lists Orthos and Divine Liturgy. What are these and which would be most benefit to a visitor to attend?

First of all, many of the Orthodox have left the FR in recent years. There are a handful left, one or two Greeks at most.

I am cradle Serbian Orthodox but I am not a practicing the faith. I don;t hate the Church or God. I just don't know what God is (that's another topic). However, I do know a great deal about the faith.

To answer your question: the prayers before the beginning of the liturgical worship and the liturgical worship itself. The orthos are the equivalent to "matins" or morning prayers. The divine Liturgy is the Eastern name for the Holy Mass.

You would benefit mostly form attending the Divine Liturgy, but I suggest you read up thoroughly on it, or else it will be a meaningless, ritualistic show. Get informed.

Needless to say, with the exception of a couple of Orthodox posters, most of the information you received thus far is either distorted or outright incorrect. I suggest orthodoxwiki.com in absence of a well-informed Orthodox Christian.

Contrary to one poster, the RCC and the EOC does not have a dispute over the Holy Trinity; both Churches teach exactly the same thing about the Triniatrian God. The dispute is in terminology as regards the 'procession' of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Nicene Creed.

The addition "and the Son" is a latter-day addition which the East rejected and for a good reason. Since the, the RCC has made it clear that they recognize that the Spirit, as regards his existence, proceeds form the Father, thereby recognizing the monarchy of the Father as the source of everything including the divinity (or Godhead).

It's a lot more complicated than some of the superficial answer your received. The Orthodox Church is every way a catholic and apostolic Church, with valid clergy and sacraments, as the Roman Catholic Church is. They form two traditions in the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church, and were in communion for the most of the first one thousand years of Christianity. They have not been in communion for all practical purposes since 1054 AD.

The reasons for this are many and complicated. But just remember that as far as apostolic authority goes, the Orthodox East is no different than the Latin West.

The Orthodox East also rejects Augustinians original sin, Immaculate Conception, Papal infallibility, Purgatory, unleavened Eucharist, etc. as innovations unknown to the early Church.

All Eastern Orthodox share the same theology and faith and are in communion with the Bishop of Constantinople or new Rome (aka Ecumenical Patriarch), who is second in honor after the Bishop of Old Rome (aka Pope). Members of any particular EOC can receive communion in other EO Churches.

[sueuprising]

First of all, my illiterate forbears who lived in the mountains of the Pelopponeses actually were great lovers of learning, albeit they did not get much back in the 18th century.However, my great-great grandfathers on both sides were the postmasters of their village and were the only ones to have an education there. My great grandfather was literate and I still have his medical book from 1818. So, perhaps the desire to learn is what made my mother convert to Protestantism ( and the influence of her Yankee upbringing) . I am interested in Greek culture of the past, but it is so far removed from the modern Greek that I would not feel comfortable in their world. I feel more at home at German speaking Mennonite services since I used to be fluent in that language, and am more comfortable in that type of culture. I do not speak Greek which is an essential component in becoming a part of the Greek ORthodox community. I also do not agree with their theological perspectives, and am very happy as a bible believing Baptist. I did not want to get into this on posts, but Greek ORthodoxism , and that is the only Orthodox church I am qualified to comment upon, is a very ritual heavy, hierarchical church which does not encourage its congregants to read the Bible or to discuss it at any length. To them that is the business of the priests and arch bishop who for all intents and purposes are perceived as more holy than the ordinary person and therefore,more qualified to embrace to things of God. The people simply go hear the liturgy.
There are some practices that are similar to pagan rites that were simply given a Christian name. For example, during Easter some (not all) Greek Churches have a parade where the women dress an effigy (presumably of Christ) in flowers etc. It is then carried through the streets in a solemn procession by these women. This rite is identical to the service for the pagan god, Tammuz. Female worshippers in those pre Christian times dressed an effigy of Tammuz ( one of the many manifestations of Osiris, the god who came back from the dead) and carried it in a weeping procession through the streets. This was to symbolize his death and of course at the end there is some kind of party to symbolize his resurrection. The same party occurs at the end of the modern Greek Orthodox processional. Interesting from an anthropological perspective, I think.

[muawiyah]

Burning Christmas trees AND installing pews in Russian churches are signs of the incredible ancientness of some of the Orthodox traditions as well as how change does come.

Of note, the Mennonites ~ some (all?) are Apostolic in structure. That means that the people do what their leaders tell them to do.

The "form" is different than what the Orthodox do, but the impetus is the same.

I can imagine someone raised in the Orthodox tradition skipping right on by that part!

[muawiyah]

BTW, that Tammuz celebration is similar to the Japanese celebration where women parade with clam shells.

Guys don't do that.

There's no doubt some underlying connectivity there ~

[sueuprising]

Of note, the Mennonites ~ some (all?) are Apostolic in structure. That means that the people do what their leaders tell them to do. The "form" is different than what the Orthodox do, but the impetus is the same. I can imagine someone raised in the Orthodox tradition skipping right on by that part! Nearly every denomination in Christianity has some kind of authority that is appealed to. First and foremost is the leadership of the Word of God, the Bible. The Old Order Mennonites like the Amish ascribe to an Ordnung which informs their lives since they are determined to live a life separate from the "world." In Christianity there are precepts that must be ascribed to in obedience to God, but there ought to be a personal regeneration as well. Only Protestantism seems to have gotten that right and that is why it was the Protestants who encouraged personal scholarship and literacy in order for one to read the Bible and understand for oneself the words of Scripture. Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are much more ecclesiastical in their soteriology which ,to me, leaves one open to empty repetition and a false sense of security that if one is part of the denomination, then one has assurance. As for the pagan rituals being enacted by women, that was because these rites were ultimately connected to the ubiquitous fertility rites of pagan cultures. Men took a backseat at these displays.

[newberger]

Of note, the Mennonites ~ some (all?) are Apostolic in structure. That means that the people do what their leaders tell them to do.

Well I can't speak for the Mennonites but I do know for certain that is NOT what 'apostolic' means for Orthodox Christians.

Apostolic means 1) that our faith is that passed on by the apostles and 2) our leadership has direct physical (consecration of the bishops through laying on of hands) and spiritual (maintenance of the teaching of the apostles by the bishops) all the way back to the apostles.

[muawiyah]

That's "apostolic succession", "apostolic", by itself, has a far different meaning. For a priest in orders he knows what it means Fur Shur ~ just like the Old Order Amish.

Remember, the Anabaptists didn't just make stuff up ~ they applied what were normally controls on priests to the entire congregation ~ plus they got rid of the hierarchy.

[newberger]

Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are much more ecclesiastical in their soteriology which ,to me, leaves one open to empty repetition and a false sense of security that if one is part of the denomination, then one has assurance.

Well, Sue, my experience is SO different from what you've seen that I hardly know where to begin.

Most of my congregation are converts from Evangelical backgrounds or Roman Catholicism. A number, like me, have had seminary training. Some are former clergy. Most are well educated. In fact, a good number teach at the university level. So our experiences differ.

Most of us know the Bible well. We are expected to read it daily!

As far as "assurance" goes, since we reject Calvinist teachings such as eternal security (perseverance of the Saints for my Reformed friends) no well taught Orthodox Christian believes that being Orthodox is an "instant in".

Yes, our understanding of soteriology is very ecclesial in that we teach that we need each other to become holy, Fopr us salvation is not just being forgiven but becoming like Jesus. You just cannot do that on your own.

[newberger]

Sue, I meant this as a reply to you.

Sorry for the posting error.

Paul (aka Newberger)

[FormerLib]

Here's a source were you can receive more accurate information about the Orthodox Christian Church than you've been receiving from some members of other faiths on this thread.

And may God bless your journey!

[newberger]

That web site is an ultra-conservative web site. It has a lot of interesting information but many of the it’s positions are rather ‘extreme’.

Twelve years ago, this site almost stopped my journey to Orthodoxy!

[eleni121]

I am fully and fortunately Greek Orthodox..blessed are my ancestors who survived the terrors of Islam, Nazism, and Communism and kept the faith of the the Lord Jesus. And may the memories of thoses who did not survive be even more blessed.

One of my favorite preachers and theologians is this wonderful man - Father Thomas Hopko. I would hope that you could read and hear him. You may consider returning to the flock. Here is the website of St. Vladimir’s where he teaches and where one can learn.

http://old.svots.edu/homepage.html