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Posted on 08/11/2010 10:43:46 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
(NOTE: This article is from a recognized LDS site)
Introduction
Latter-day Saints recognize Muslims as brothers and sisters, children of our Heavenly Father, with whom we can find much common ground. LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley stated: "we value our Muslim neighbors across the world." Latter-day Saints respect the strong values of Muslims as well as Islamic contributions to science, literature, history, philosophy, medicine, and the arts. Although there are many differences between Muslims and Latter-day Saints in doctrine and practice, we acknowledge these differences with respect rather than criticism.
Muhammad and Revelation
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Muhammad was an inspired teacher who taught a portion of God's word. The Book of Mormon teaches: "The Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore, we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true."[1] In a letter written on February 15, 1978, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declared:
"Based upon ancient and modern revelation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from common mortal progenitors but also as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father. The great religious leaders of the world such as Muhammad, Confucius, and the Reformers ... received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals ... Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come ... Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father."[2]
LDS Apostle George Q. Cannon stated:
"I believe myself that Mahomed, whom the Christians deride and call a false prophet and stigmatize with a great many epithets -- I believe that he was a man raised up by the Almighty, and inspired to a certain extent by Him to effect the reforms which he did in his land, and in the nations surrounding. He attacked idolatry, and restored the great and crowning idea that there is but one God. He taught that idea to his people, and reclaimed them from polytheism and from the heathenish practices into which they had fallen. I believe many men were inspired who lived after him and before him, who, nevertheless, did not have the Holy Priesthood, but were led by the Spirit of God to strive for a better condition of affairs and to live a purer and higher life than those by whom they were surrounded were living. But while this was the case, it was the Spirit of God that did it."[3]
Latter-day Saints accept all truth, wherever it may be found, as part of our religion -- whether in the Quran or in other good books.
God
Latter-day Saints and Muslims believe that God is just, merciful, all-knowing and all-powerful. Latter-day Saints recognize the terms God and Allah to refer to the same being in different languages. The Quran teaches: "Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends all things in (His) Knowledge."[4] The Book of Mormon teaches: "Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend."[5]
Christ and Muhammad
The Quran teaches that Jesus (Isa) was a great teacher and prophet sent by God. Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ as the son of God and Savior of the world. The Quran testifies that Allah sent Isa to teach truth: "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah."[6]
The Quran teaches that Jesus should be revered: "Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.'"[7] It testifies of the many miracles performed by Jesus. Sura 3:47-51 states:
"She said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?' He said: 'Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): 'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
God strengthened Jesus by the Holy Spirit and gave Jesus power to perform miracles, heal the sick, raise the dead. The Quran states: "Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! ... thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs ..."[8] Muhammad never claimed to have performed any miracles.
The Quran further states of Jesus: "He said: 'I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again).' Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute."[9]
The Quran teaches that Jesus was taken up to heaven, where he dwells with God: "Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."[10] Muhammad's grave is in Medina today. In contrast, Muhammad was told to seek forgiveness of his sins: "Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe ..."[11] Muhammad never claimed to be sinless.
Faith, Works, and Judgment
God will return to judge the world "When the earth is pounded to powder, And thy Lord cometh, and His angels, rank upon rank."[12] The Book of Mormon teaches that all men will one day "stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body."[13] Latter-day Saints strive to "endure to the end" to be found worthy, through Christ's grace, to return to God.[14]
Both Muhammad and Christ taught that even after doing good works, the grace of God is still necessary. The Quran teaches: "If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour)."[15] It continues: "One Day every soul will come up struggling for itself, and every soul will be recompensed (fully) for all its actions, and none will be unjustly dealt with. But verily thy Lord, to those who do wrong in ignorance, but who thereafter repent and make amends, thy Lord, after all this, is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."[16] The Bible teaches that "God is a merciful God."[17] The Book of Mormon prophet Nephi writes: "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do."[18]
The Quran and the Book of Mormon teach that God looks upon our actions and our intentions. The Quran states, "Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)? Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness), and encourages not the feeding of the indigent. So woe to the worshippers who are neglectful of their prayers, those who (want but) to be seen (of men), but refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs."[19] The Book of Mormon teaches, "For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God. And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such."[20]
The Quran, Bible, and Book of Mormon all warn against placing our hearts on riches. The Quran teaches that God's chastisement comes "because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject Faith."[21] The Bible teaches, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."[22]
The Quran teaches: "Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend."[23] Jesus taught, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."[24]
The Quran and the Book of Mormon both teach the importance of obeying God's laws. The Quran teaches, "Then, he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) heavy, Will be in a life of good pleasure and satisfaction. But he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) light, Will have his home in a (bottomless) Pit."[25] The Quran states that "those who believe in Allah and work righteousness, He will admit to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: Allah has indeed granted for them a most excellent Provision."[26] The Book of Mormon teaches: "And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness."[27]
The Pillars of Islam
Similarities can be found between the "Five Pillars of Islam" and LDS beliefs. Latter-day Saints and Muslims believe that there is one God, and that we must have no other gods before Him. Second, Muslims pray five times daily toward the holy city of Mecca. Latter-day Saints pray daily, personally and with their families, a minimum of five times daily -- before all meals, when rising in the morning, and when retiring in the evening. We also believe that we should always have a prayer in our hearts. Third, Muslims participate in almsgiving, or giving one-fortieth of one's income to the poor. Latter-day Saints believe in the law of tithing and return one-tenth of all of our increase to the Lord. Fourth, Latter-day Saints and Muslims both believe that fasting can bring us closer to God. While Muslims fast from food and drink from sunrise to sunset from morning to evening throughout the entire month of Ramadan, Latter-day Saints believe in fasting for twenty-four hour periods once a month, or more frequently if the occasion warrants. Finally, Muslims strive to perform a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in one's lifetime. The travels of the early Latter-day Saint pioneers are in many ways comparable to those of devout Muslims. The sacrifices made by many LDS families to attend the temple at least once in a lifetime, and much more frequently, if opportunities allow, are in many ways similar to the sacrifices made by Muslim pilgrims to Mecca.
The Christian Apostasy
Muslims and Latter-day Saints both recognize that after the coming of Jesus, divisions and apostasy arose in the Christian church. The Quran teaches: "Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan."[28] Latter-day Saints recognize the departure of many Christians from the teachings of the Apostles and the loss of divine authority in the Church, as well as the restoration of God's church through the prophet Joseph Smith.
Latter-day Saints and Muslims acknowledge that writings in the Bible, while inspired and truthful, underwent some changes as they passed through the hands of careless scribes and translators and conniving priests. Latter-day Saints and Muslims also recognize that many doctrines of non-LDS Christianity come not from the Bible, but from various creeds and non-apostolic works of the so-called 'early church fathers,' as well as from pagan Greek and Roman traditions. Latter-day Saints do not accept the non-biblical creeds widely regarded by other Christian faiths.
The Divine Light and Revelation
Latter-day Saints receive guidance through ongoing revelation from living prophets and apostles today. While Jews accept the holy writings constituting the Old Testament and sectarian Christians claim to believe both the Old and New Testaments, Muslims recognize the Old and the New Testament and the Quran as inspired. In each case, a certain amount of revelation is accepted, but no more. Each group draws a line cutting themselves off from ongoing, contemporary revelation. This diverges from the Lord's pattern of constant, ongoing revelation to His people throughout all of recorded scripture. Latter-day Saints differ from Jews, Sectarian Christians, and Muslims in that we accept not only the Lord's ancient words in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but we accept the words and instruction that the Lord continues to give through living prophets and apostles in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In the Book of Mormon, the Lord states: "because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished."[29]
God is eternal and unchanging, and He loves his children as much today as in the time of Abraham or Muhammad. He revealed to Abraham and Muhammad many particulars relating to even seemingly small aspects of daily life. Yet we face challenges today that did not exist at the time of Abraham or Muhammad. Would God withhold counsel from us today in great matters, when he taught Abraham and Muhammad even in small ones? Latter-day Saints believe that God in his wisdom has provided living prophets on earth today, in whom the divine light dwells, to provide us with direction. God also provides a way in which all those who live worthily and receive authorized ordinances can receive within themselves the divine light.
God sends the Holy Spirit to help us to identify truth. The Quran teaches: "Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims."[30] God promises that if we study, pray, and ask God sincerely, the power of the Holy Ghost can help us to know that the Book of Mormon is true.[31] The divine authority held in ancient times by apostles and prophets was restored in modern times through the prophet Joseph Smith.
The Book of Mormon
Like the Prophet Muhammad, Book of Mormon prophets like Alma and Moroni lived in times when many people held false beliefs and denied the one true God. The people of God were often persecuted and faced many hardships. God empowered chosen prophets to call people to repentance and teach divine truths. These truths are recorded in the Book of Mormon.
Practical Religion
For Muslims and Latter-day Saints, religion is not simply a philosophy, but a way of life. Latter-day Saints believe that gospel principles must govern daily conduct. The fruits of faith in the lives of Latter-day Saints are easily identified. Latter-day Saints and Muslims share in common a strong focus on the family. The family is recognized as the fundamental unit of society and as ordained by God. While lackadaisical attitudes towards morality and divorce are held by many non-LDS Christians, observant Latter-day Saints and Muslims highly value chastity, fidelity in marriage, and familial responsibility. Latter-day Saints are commanded by the Lord to "bring up children in light and truth."[32] U.S. research shows that active Latter-day Saint youth are far less likely to be involved in immoral conduct than their non-LDS peers.[33] Latter-day Saints, like observant Muslims, do not drink alcohol. Latter-day Saints observe a strict law of health that includes a healthy diet and abstinence from tobacco products and other harmful substances. Adherence to these teachings brings practical benefits. One medical study found that observant Latter-day Saints had a life expectancy eight to eleven years longer than the U.S. average.[34] Latter-day Saints also receive many other blessings as they strive to obey God's laws. LDS Prophet and Apostle David O. McKay stated that "the purpose of the gospel is ... to make bad men good and good men better, and to change human nature."
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hold their Muslim neighbors around the world in high regard. Latter-day Saints extend an invitation to all people to learn of God, of His son Jesus Christ, and of His restored gospel, so that others may also share in the blessings of the gospel in this life and in the next.
[2] Apocryphal Writings and the Latter-day Saints, ed. C. Wilfred Griggs, p. 29. [3] George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, 24:371. [4] Quran 65:12, Yusuf Ali edition [6] Quran 5:46 [7] Quran 3:45 [8] Quran 5:110 [9] Quran 19:30-34 [10] Quran 4:158 [11] Quran 47:19, see also 40:55 [12] Quran 89:21-22 [15] Quran 16:61 [16] Quran 16:111, 119 [19] Quran 107:1-7 [21] Quran 16:107 [23] Quran 4:125 [25] Quran 101:6-9 [26] Quran 65:11 [28] Quran 2:253 [30] Quran 16:102 [33] Top, Brent L, and Bruce A. Chadwick. "Helping Teens Stay Strong." Ensign. March. 1999, p. 27. [34] Enstrom, James E., "Health Practices and Mortality among Active California Mormons, 1980-1993," in James T. Duke (ed.), Latter-day Saint Social Life, Provo: Religious Studies Center, 1998, pp. 461-471.
How about this, as soon as lds stop claiming to be Christians, and acknowledge their bastardization of the Word of God, I'll stop posting.
"I’ll change my use of the term, just for you..."Thanks! ;^)
The "all" thing is so I don't misunderstand who your comments are directed to. I suspected as much, but wasn't sure. I believe when I've posted to you, I'm pretty careful to include your FR name in the line or statement I'm addressing directly to you. It just helps to prevent folks from running down rabbit trails and getting confused.
FRegards,
SZ
Thanks! ;^) How have you been?
Things are going much smoother for me now. I “came out” and told my family that I’m formally leaving the LdS religion and attending a Christian church (Grace). They weren’t all that enthusiastic, but now there’s no trying to dance around the topic. We’re working things out. Common ground, neutral territory, call it what you will, but I am trying to keep the doors open to teaching them about the fallacies of mormonism.
We’re looking at having Bible study together(they’ll still study BoM separately), but I will/can use that as an opportunity to demonstrate the true meanings of certain scriptures used by mormons as opposed to how they’ve been misinterpreted and used by the LdS.
On to your points...
The points do need to be made, as often as they are needed.
As much as I disagree with the religion, I would rather be able to engage the mormons in civil and Christ like debate vs. continually “running down rabbit trails”.
If addressing misperceptions helps to do that, then by all means, let’s.
But, and it’s a big BUT, it must be reciprocal.
See, you got me running down a rabbit trail! ;^)
Bless you brother.
I seem to remember Abraham enjoying the fruit of the vine.
Yes they had no problem with having a Moslem in the White house
and putting Moslems on the front row in their mormon religious services in the US (either Salt lake or CA)
Even the Moslems were surprised they were treated so welll
It was pointed out by the Moslems that while they were on the front row the mormon commmoners were pushed to the back...
They also hate alcohol
___________________________________
Hardly...
Joey Smith used to have a bar right in his living room
he drank liquer and sold it to his followers...
Brigham Young had a brewery in Utah so that he could have a monopoly on the beer market...
Joey Smith had dances and parties and so did BY..
Where did you get the idea that mormons hated alcohol ???
So what other point did I prove again?
And I have heard it, unlike you have have NOT heard the now at least SIX (6) times that I have told you that I have read all the sites you have posted, as well as the BOM and other LDS ‘Scripture’ etc, indeed did so well before you came along.
Have you forgotten, again, that it was I who POSTED the links FOR YOU before you finally got smart enough to do it yourself. That's a pair rhetorical questions for like most LDS defenders you ignore that which does not fit your script and act as if you never have heard it DESPITE being told time and time again in very simple and clear language. But facts stand, the record is here on FR for all to see.
Anyways, the works of the LDS are our best resource in proving that the LDS is a scam. So your posting them is just fine and dandy, we use them more than you do anyways.
Noah grew grapes and made his own wine...
Jesus turned water into wine...
If I really hated Mormons, if I was really a hateful bigot, I can think of nothing more hateful or despicable, more bigoted and evil to do to anyone than letting them waltz blithely through the gates of Hell as I sit back and watch and do nothing.
If I hated someone what more could I do to them in this world or the next that could suporass having them suffer for eternaity.
Battling evil, showing the path either through love to those receptive or by more aggressive means to those blindly locked in evil's clutches is the opposite of hate.
Jude 1
18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Any supermarket in Utah will have a beer section smaller than a screen door.
Well the mormons dont have the beer consession any more
I bet you if they had the beer monolopy like they did in Brigham youngs day...
Youd see a bigger beer section...
The mormon owned Marriot makes a mint with their high priced cocktails...
I was at a conference once and some of the people said that the Martinis were expensive but strong...
The mormons dont think money is filthy lucre...
and they dont mind selling booze to the Gentiles...
So mormonism is like Islam ???
OK but mormonism is not like Christianity...
Mormonism is NOT Christianity
The foul practice of polygamy is not part of Christianity..
Idol worship of the pagan Joey Smith is not part of Christianity...
Multiple gods are not part of Christianity...
A non-virgin Mary is not part of Christianity...
Only males going to Heaven is not part of Christianity...
Males becoming gods is not part of Christianity...
Males ruling their own planet is not part of Christianity...
A priesthood system as practiced by the mormons is not part of Christianity
Women as sex slaves in a harem is not part of Christianity...
Women having babies forever is not part of Christianity...
Women being called from their graves by husbands who decide the woman’s fate is not part of Christianity...
Degradation of women through adultery and so called “celestial marriage” is not part of Christianity...
Three levels of Heaven is not part of Christianity
Sex in Heaven is not part of Christianity…
Men marrying their mother-in-law is not part of Christianity…
Men marrying their daughter-in-law is not part of Christianity..
Men marrying their wife’s sister is not part of Christianity
Special underwear are not part of Christianity..
Special ceremony clothes are not part of Christianity…
Joey Smith deciding who gets into Heaven is not part of Christianity...
Joey Smith as the savior is not part of Christianity...
Recognizing and worshipping the blasphemous Joey Smith is not part of Christianty...
Dead dunking is not part of Christianity...
The idol on top of the mormon temples is not part of Christianity...
The mormon temples are not part of Christianity...
Gathering in “zion” whether its in Missouri or Utah is not part of Christianity...
The return of the mormon jesus to Missouri is not part of Christianity...
The belief that the garden of Eden was in Missouri is not part of Christianity...
Pewople living on the sun and the moon is not part of Christianity...
The belief that the mormon jesus visited Central America is not part of Christianity...
Freemasonry as practiced by the mormons is not part of Christianity...
Endowments are not part of Christianity...
The book of mormon is not part of Christianity
The tall tales of Joey Smith are not part of Christianity
Mythical ancient civilizations in Central America are not part of Christianity
The so called “visions” and false prophecies of Joey Smith arfe not part of Christianity
The mormon Mary having sex with one of the mormon gods is not part of Christianity...
The absence of a cross on a building is not part of Christianity
Pagan and Freemasonry symbols on a building are not part of Christianity
“Going through the temple” is not part of Christianity...
The denial that Jesus is God is not part of Christianity...
The denial that the Holy Ghost is God is not part of Christianity...
The denial of the Trinity is not part of Christianity...
The belief that the mormon god was once a man is not part of Christianity
The belief that the mormon god was a polygamist is not part of Christianity...
The belief that the mormon jesus was a polygamist is not part of Christianity...
The belief that monogamy...one man, one woman...is prostitution is not part of Christianity...
The belief that David went to Hell forever is not part of Christianity.
The belief that David will not be in Heaven is not part of Christianity….
Paying tithes to be saved is not part of Christianity......
Works to be saved is not part of Christianity
Being a member of the mormon corporation is not part of Christianity...
The mormon jesus sweating in the Garden of Gethsemane for “atonement” is not part of Christianity...
The insulting, degrading, blasphemous false religion of mormonism is not Christianity...
I have never stopped MORMONS from practicing their own religion..
They are free to do so...
I do however state once again for the record...
Mormonism is NOT Christianity...
And if that’s considered “nasty” I’m in good company...
Because I’m just agreeing with the God of the Christian Bible...
King James Version included...
Mormonism is NOT Chrisitanity
Yeah, but was it the responsibility of the Quorum member who said it, and the entire Quorum that let it go without refutation, and the entire membership of LDS who unquestioningly adhere Quorum pronouncements?
And are you here and publicly disagreeing with this statement?
I would also like people to stop using the word “Christlike” when they really mean “milquetoast”.
Jesus and the apostles were NOT milktoasts when it came to pointing out false teachers and their dangers.
Thanks for your posts....
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