Posted on 08/07/2010 3:38:50 PM PDT by Salvation
Do you want the book of James to be taken literally? Is that your desire?
That is correct. It is what I have said, it is in the catechism, it is generally agreed. The graces are necessary. The sacraments are "ordinarily," but not absolutely, necessary.
D-fendr's tag is "God is not bound by the sacrament, but man is."
But I see you want this to be personal. Fine. Make it personal with somebody else.
I quoted that part pertinent to metmom’s post in reply. Of course I left the middle, it wasn't relevant to my point just as YOU have left out part of what I wrote. That YOU left out part of my post is well, “scandalous” to the same extent.
Is the Athanasian Creed an accurate statement of Catholic belief and does it say what I quoted or not?
Absolutely on point, my FRiend. Thank you for this terrific passage from the apostle Paul. He really ties the whole story together, doesn't he?
Sanctifying grace, justifying grace, habitual grace, actual grace, sacramental grace, sufficient grace, efficacious grace? Are there more that I've left out? Because I certainly don't want to be accused of leaving something out. Please feel free to add more, if there are more..
Great additions. Thank you, Quix.
And, that newly minted word, “Quixicated” has got to be sent to Webster. An apt term!!
Excellent point. And of course we know the answer.
“No where is the Bible does it mention a Successor, or even the possibility of a successor.”
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Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.
Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”
Acts 1:22 - literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.
1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”
Numbers 16:40 - shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.
Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html
No, I just asked you if you wanted the book of James to be taken literally? Yes? No? Parts of it? 2 verses? What?
You call it “a manipulated quote”, an accusation without evidence of such even being suggested. And according to the rules I really don’t have to please YOU in a reply, tough but that’s life.
"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles; I MAGNIFY MY OFFICE." (Rom. 11:13).
Paul was not being prideful or self-important here. It was his POSTITION, not his PERSON, that was to be understood and followed, as he followed Christ. And it is those who would minimize, rather than magnify Paul's office, that causes the confusion and disobedience to the truth.
“there is no apostolic succession in scripture , no pope , no priesthood, no mass, no holy water no relics, no indulgences, no purgatory ...no Roman Catholic church”
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The Church
Matthew 16:13-20 - Upon this rock I will build my Church
Matthew 18:17-18 - if he refuses to listen even to the Church ... (shows the importance of obeying and consequences of disobeying the Church)
Matthew 28:18-20 - Go Baptize and teach all nations ...(the Church’s mission)
Mark 16:16 - Go to the whole world and proclaim the gospel.
Luke 10:16 - Whoever hears you, hears me, he who rejects you, rejects me.
John 14:16,16, 26 - Holy Spirit will be with you always to teach and reminder you of everything.
John 16:12 - the Spirit of Truth with guide you to all truth.
1 Timothy 3:15 - Church is the pillar and foundation of truth
The Church is Apostolic
Matthew 16:13-20 - Jesus built his Church on Peter, the rock (foretold in the OT: Isaiah 22:15-25)
Luke 22:29-30 - I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father conferred one on me: you will eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:32 - Peter appointed to be the chief shepherd (that Peter’s faith may not fail)
John 10:16 - One shepherd to shepherd Christ’s sheep
John 15:16 - Jesus chose special men to be his Apostles
John 21:17-19 - Peter appointed to be the chief shepherd
John 20:21 - Jesus gave the Apostles his own mission
Ephesians 4:11 - Church leaders are hierarchical
1 Timothy 3:1,8; 1 Timothy 5:17 - identifies roles of bishops, priests and deacons
Titus 1:5 - Commission for bishops to ordain priests
Apostolic Succession
2 Chronicles 19:11 - high priest is over you in everything of the Lord’s
Malachi 2:7 - seek instruction from a priest, he is God’s messenger
Acts 1:25-26 - Matthias takes Judas’ apostolic ministry
Acts 1:20-22 - Let someone else take over his office. Out of the men who have been with us the whole time that the Lord Jesus was living with us, from the time when John was baptizing until the day when he was taken up from us, one must be appointed to serve with us as a witness to his resurrection.
Acts 14:23 - they appointed presbyters in each church
1 Corinthians 12:28-29 - God designated in the Church, apostles, prophets, teachers
Ephesians 2:20 - Church is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets
Ephesians 4:11 - God gave some as apostles, some as prophets ...
1 Timothy 3:1, 8; 1 Timothy 5:17 - qualifications for bishops, priests and deacons
1 Timothy 4:14 - gift conferred with the laying on of hands
1 Timothy 5:22 - do not lay hands too readily on anyone
2 Timothy 2:2 - what you heard from me, entrust to faithful teachers
Titus 1:5 - appoint presbyters in each town, as I directed
Relics
2 Kings 13:20-21 - contact with Elisha’s bones restored life
Acts 5:15-16 - cures performed through Peter’s shadow
Acts 19:11-12 - cures through face cloths that touched Paul
The Afterlife: Purgatory
Catholic Note:
Purgatory refers to a temporary state of purification for those who have died in the state of grace but still need to get rid of any lingering imperfections (venial sins, earthly attachments, self-will, etc.) before entering the perfection of heaven.
Purgatory has NOTHING to do with ones justification or salvation. Those in purgatory are justified; they are saved. Purgatory has to do with ones HOLINESS and the burning away of remaining self-love. Revelation 21:27
It’s true that the word “purgatory” doesn’t appear in the Bible (neither do the words “Trinity”, “Incarnation” or even “Bible”). However, what’s important is not the word, but the doctrine. And the doctrine of the final purification of the elect, apart from heaven or hell, is clearly taught in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.”
2 Samuel 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, is still punished for sin
2 Maccabees 12:39-46 - Next day, they came to find Judas (since the necessity was by now urgent) to have the bodies of the fallen taken up and laid to rest among their relatives in their ancestral tombs. But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, objects dedicated to the idols of Jamnia, which the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives. All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the upright judge who brings hidden things to light, and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be completely forgiven. Next, the valiant Judas urged the soldiers to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen; after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an action altogether fine and noble, prompted by his belief in the resurrection. For had he not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead, whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. Hence, he had this expiatory sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.
Side note: Though this book was rejected by the Protestant reformers and therefore is NOT in Protestant Bibles, one can not ignore the historical reality of this event and the reality of the words which were said.
Matthew 5:25-26 - “you will be thrown into prison and not be released until you have paid the last penny.”
Matthew 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (perfection is to be strived for on earth)
Matthew 12:32 - sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age, or the next
Matthew 12:36 - you will have to account for every idle word on judgment day
1 Corinthians 3:10-16 - “if someone’s work is burned ... the person will be saved, but only as through fire”
1 Corinthians 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead
2 Timothy 1:16-18 - St. Paul prays - asks that God have mercy on his dead friend, Onesiphorus.
Hebrews 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which one cannot see God
Hebrews 12:29 - For our God is a consuming fire
James 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity it reaches death
James 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects
1 Peter 3:18-20 to 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.
1 John 5:16-17 - Distinction made between deadly sins and one that are not deadly.
Revelation 21:27 - Nothing unclean will be allowed to enter into heaven.
See also: - Leviticus 26:41, 43; Isaiah 4:4, Isaiah 6:5-7, Isaiah 33:11-14, Micah 7 8-9:, Zechariah 9:11, Malachi 3:2-4, Matthew 18:34ff, Luke 12:58ff, Luke 16:19-31, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 4:8-10, Philippians 2:10-11, 1 Peter 4:6, Revelation 5:3, 13
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Prefigured
Genesis 14:18 - “Melchizedek king of Salem brought bread and wine; he was a priest of God Most High.”
Genesis 22:13 - (Abraham, our Father in Faith, offers a sacrifice of ram in place of his son Isaac)
Exodus 12:1-11 - The Paschal lamb {prefiguring of the Eucharistic Lord Jesus, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world} Yahweh ordered a male lamb to be slain and eaten by the Jewish people to fulfill the Passover. Staying at home eating food that looked like lamb and remembering Jesus would NOT fulfill the law. You had to eat the lamb. This is a foreshadowing of receiving the Lamb of God at Holy Communion because each Mass is the Passover.
What was required Foretold
Malachi 1:11 - “they bring sacrifice to my name and a pure offering”
Instituted by Jesus and asked to be done
Luke 22:19 - “This is my body ... given for you; do this in memory of me.”
1 Corinthians 11:25 - “this cup is the new covenant in my blood ... do this in remembrance of me.”
Attested to
Acts 2:42-47 - (New believers devoted themselves to breaking of the bread)
Hebrews 13:10 - “We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.”
See also: - Matthew 26:26-27, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, Acts 20:7-19, 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, 1 Corinthians 10:16-21, 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, Hebrews 7:27, Hebrews 10:10
Sacrament of Holy Orders
“The Church is the extension of Christ’s incarnation, and that extension takes place through the sacraments” (Scott Hahn , Swear to God, Page 22)
Protestant verse against Catholics, saying that we should not call priests “Fathers”.
Matthew 23:9 - “Call no one on earth your father, you have but one Father in heaven.”
Throughout the New Testament, humans are called “Fathers”.
Matthew 19:19 - “honor your father and mother”
Acts 7:2 - (St. Stephen calls the Jewish leaders “fathers.”)
Acts 22:1 - (St. Paul calls Jews in Jerusalem “fathers”.)
Romans 4:16 - “Abraham .. is the father of all of us”
1 Corinthians 4:15 - “I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel”
1 Timothy 1:2 - “Timothy, my true child in faith”
Philemon 10 - “Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment”
1 Thessalonians 2:11 - “treated each ... of you as a father treats his children”
Hebrews 12:9 - “we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us”
1 John 2:13 - “I am writing to you, fathers”
See also: - Matthew 3:9, Luke 1:73, Luke 3:8, Luke 4:26, John 8:56, Acts 22:1, Romans 4:11-12, Romans 9:10, 1 Timothy 5:1, Titus 1:4, James 2:21
Instituted by Christ Our Lord.
Luke 22:19 - He took the bread, said the blessing, broke it and said to the Apostles {’Do this in memory of me’} (The bishops are the successors of the apostles. Priests partake in the bishops work.)
John 20:21-22 - “As the Father has sent me, so I send you ... and He breathed on them saying ‘Receive the Holy Spirit”
Conferred by the imposition of OR laying on of hands.
Acts 6:6 - the apostles prayed and laid hands on them
Acts 13:3 - “they laid hands on them and sent them off.”
Acts 14:22 - they appointed presbyters in each church
1 Timothy 4:14 - gift received through the laying on of hands of presbyterate
2 Timothy 1:6 - gift of God you have received through the imposition of hands
Titus 1:5 - appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you
See also: - 1 Timothy 5:22, James 5:14
Gives grace.
Acts 14:22 - (Apostles appointed presbyters)
1 Timothy 4:14 - “the gift you have, which was conferred on you through ... the imposition { or laying on } of hands”
2 Timothy 1:6 - “stir into flame the gift of God that you have through the imposition { or laying on } of my hands”
Priests have authority in spiritual matters.
2 Chronicles 19:11 - “high priest over you in every thing that pertains to the LORD”
Malachi 2:7 - “lips of the priest are to keep knowledge and instruction is to be sought from his mouth”
Matthew 10:1 - “summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits”
Matthew 28:19-20 - “Go ... teaching all that I have commanded you”
Luke 10:16 - “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me.”
Luke 22:19 - (Jesus tells apostles to break bread in memory of him)
John 20:21-23 - “As the Father sent me, so am I sending you. After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained” Acts 20:28 - Holy Spirit appointed you overseers to tend to the needs of the Church
See also: - Matthew 18:18, 1 Timothy 5:22, Titus 1:5, 1 Peter 2:5-10
http://www.askacatholic.com/holyquotes/documents/_all_catholic_verses.htm#thechurch
Yes, such a good observation. And it is from Paul that we find the golden thread of faith reaching back to encompass all the believers called from the foundation of the world. We owe a debt of gratitude to this man, without having to over do it the way the Catholics have with Mary.
Hmmmph.
I'm reminded of the morning after, if I should have too much wine at dinner:
The Wrath of Grapes!
Cheers!
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