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Magical Thinking and Why Facts Matter: Considering the Risks of Mormon Irrationality ...
Post-Mormon Scrapbook ^

Posted on 07/20/2010 5:08:05 PM PDT by delacoert

Magical thinking goes beyond “belief without evidence” to the point of “belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary”.

Worldviews Based on Magical Thinking

This post is part personal story and part cautionary tale. It concerns the risks to individuals, and to society in general, from the use of “magical thinking” as the basis for a worldview and consequent decision-making. The term magical thinking is intended to denote a particularly irrational type of faith (faith being defined as “belief without evidence”). It is the kind of thinking rampant in Mormon culture, wherein otherwise intelligent and often well educated people are willing to proclaim simultaneous believe in diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive concepts such as creation and evolution.

According to Mormon magical thinking, “revelation”, or “proclamation by an authority holding proper keys” is deemed sufficient for one to accept the validity of a proposition based on its source alone. This irrationality is often justified by the idea that sympathetic supernatural forces are ultimately in control. Therefore, no physical or other corroborating evidence of any kind is required. Any evidence contrary to the revealed “truth” is simply ignored.

Thus, magical thinking goes beyond “belief without evidence” to the point of “belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary”. A case in point is the widespread belief in the divinity and historicity of the Book of Abraham, as contained in the Pearl of Great Price. This unfounded belief persists in spite of the fact that the papyri from which the book was supposedly translated have been shown to be Egyptian funerary text from the now well known “Book of Breathings”. The claimed source of the Book of Abraham, in fact, has nothing whatsoever to do with Abraham.

What many faithful Mormons don’t seem to understand is that facts matter. This apparent failure to recognize the preeminence of fact over ecclesiastical pronouncement or feeling is shared by many Christians, Muslims and other theists. Whether one is unaware of the facts, ignores the facts, denies the facts, tries to rationalize the facts, or believes the facts and acts appropriately based upon them; facts matter. In the end it is the facts, and the reality they represent, that determine our opportunities and limitations.

The things that one believes about the world and the universe in which we live should be based on reproducible physical evidence interpreted with logic and reason, and not subjective feelings such as a “burning in the bosom”. Decisions based on emotion instead of fact seldom benefit anyone. The failure to recognize relevant facts is an attribute of magical thinking. The risks of this worldview are exemplified by the tragedy related above, as well as by unfortunate events in Mormon history from the Mountain Meadows Massacre to Mark Hoffman’s Salamander Letters. The everyday downside of magical thinking is also reflected in needless guilt, and in the time, energy and financial resources the practice of Mormonism entails.

A worldview based mainly on “burning bosom” decision making, evidence seen with “spiritual eyes”, or the expectation of supernatural intervention, must be considered at least naïve and irresponsible. At its worst, magical thinking can be dangerous and even fatal to the decision-maker and others (sometimes many others).

In stark contrast, development of rational, science based approaches to decision-making has been mainly responsible for the remarkable scientific and technological advances of the 20th and 21st centuries. Despite Mormonism’s frequent claims that science and religion are not in opposition, it should be clear to all by now that they are indeed opposed, and diametrically so.

A Scientist Finds His Way Out

Problems with the logic and voracity of many Mormon teachings first became apparent to me while still in high school seminary. Subject material in Church history and Mormon scripture courses seemed especially tenuous. Even as a teenager, I felt embarrassed for the seminary teacher who stood before our Church History class and declared with a straight face that the biblical Garden of Eden was actually located in or around Daviess County Missouri. He added that the very alter Adam had used to worship the Lord after his expulsion from the Garden was seen there by Joseph Smith. He told us that through revelation, Joseph Smith proclaimed that the place was, in fact, Adam ondi Ahmen.

None in our class had the courage to ask how it was possible that the Garden of Eden could be located 6,500 miles and an ocean away from where Adam’s early posterity lived, as related in the Old Testament. After all, the whole story, including eye witness accounts and a photograph of the place, was right there in black and white in the Church History text book.

Even as teenagers, most Mormon kids I grew up with had learned to accept what was taught in church pretty much without question. The adult response to further inquiry regarding illogical teachings was that more faith was needed, so we seldom bothered. Having been born in the Church, it seemed best to just go along with my peers. Having been taught that we were members of an elite and privileged group, we simply did what was expected of us; we took the classes and graduated. By the time I had finished college and graduate school (with a few Institute classes along the way), I clearly understood the magical thinking required to be a “true believing Mormon”.

As a young scientist and father, the cognitive dissonance generated by the science and Mormonism dichotomy was often a problem. For the most part, however, I was able to compartmentalize the two by adopting the (no longer viable) Steven Jay Gould strategy of considering science and religion to be “non-overlapping magisteria”. Thus, in professional life I relied on and evidence, logic and reason, while in religious life I tried to become comfortable with the myriad of unfounded beliefs encountered at church. After the age of 30 or so, I was no longer able to stand and bear my testimony.

However, for most of these years, the “non-overlapping magisterial” approach for controlling the cognitive dissonance seemed to work well enough. That is, until Christine Jonson drowned her children.

The growing unease with magical thinking that was kindled by these murders was reinforced by the Hoffman Salamander Letters debacle in 1985 and further accelerated by a little personal research into secular, “unsanitized” Mormon history. As anyone who makes the effort can attest, much of what one finds in such an endeavor is definitely not “faith promoting”. I came away questioning how any reasonable person could ignore the overwhelming scientific, historical, geographical, linguistic, and now genetic evidence against the divinity and historical validity of the Book of Mormon. I then embarked on the first of many assignments to Israel and the holy lands of the Old Testament, New Testament and beginning of the Book of Mormon.

Debating a Muslim about Islam, Mormonism and Christianity

While living and working in the Middle East, I saw first hand the fundamental problems of theocratic governance in Islam, and realized that this was also a growing problem in Mormonism (as it has long been in Catholicism). More importantly, it became increasingly evident to me that the magical thinking necessary to maintain a modern theocracy can be dangerous. Unquestioned acceptance of often arbitrary “revelations” and pronouncements, which otherwise deny facts and defy logic, often leads to horrific consequences in the real world.

Friendly debates over religion with an Arab colleague proved valuable in clarifying why this is the case. My Muslim friend and business partner had been educated in the US, was well traveled, and spoke several languages fluently. Muslims often hesitate to discuss their religion with infidels. However, because I had taken an interest in the Koran, and at times was responsible for the safety and moral purity of his oldest son, religion was something we were able to discuss in private. (My daughter often took care of his kids in Abu Dhabi and his oldest son spent a summer with our family in the US.)

Most of these discussions took place during high speed late night drives through the empty desert on in-country business trips (please see end notes). For the purpose of these debates, my general proposition was that the Koran was comprised of the disjointed and often contradictory ramblings of a sincere but misguided man who sequestered himself in a cave for days at a time over a period of 10 years or so. He claimed to have brought forth a new religion from Allah, the one true God, by way of the angel Gabriel. What eventually became the Koran was then passed down as an oral tradition, having been first collected as written text some 20 years after it was received.

I claimed (as would most Christians and most Mormons) that it was madness to base a religion, not to mention the governance of nations, on the vague and muddled pronouncements found in the Koran. Among other problems, I maintained, the Koran cannot be the perfect word of God because it teaches at least two different and incompatible versions of creation, along with a patently weird cosmology (seven layered heavens, stars moving around the earth, etc.), most of which have been proven false by modern science. Giving one’s life for such a religion, far from being evidence of its truthfulness, was nothing less than insanity.

The general proposition of my Muslim friend was that the Koran had been revealed directly from God to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), with the help of the angel Gabriel, and was indeed the last and most perfect word of God. In contrast, the Christian Old Testament and Judaic Torah (although once perhaps in pure form), were now little more than inaccurately recorded and much-revised oral traditions relating only myth and misunderstanding regarding the true nature and will of God.

He further asserted that the books of the New Testament were arbitrarily selected from among many second-hand stories and legends. These were first written at least 70 years after the claimed events were supposed to have occurred, and by persons having no first-hand knowledge of these events whatsoever. It is evident that the New Testament is filled with myth and inaccuracies including the blasphemous (according to Islam) concepts of a divine Jesus and a triune God. Therefore, he claimed, while these scriptures might contain some semblance of truth, none of these writings (Old Testament, Torah, or New Testament) can now be considered as the authentic, true or complete word of God.

For good measure, he pointed out that Judeo-Christian creation stories and cosmologies, and especially those of the Mormon religion, are no less weird and scientifically unsupportable than those in the Koran. He had become somewhat acquainted with the Mormon Church while in the US. Among the Christian churches, he was most interested in the Mormon Church because of many common beliefs and similarities between Islam and Mormonism in terms of their founding and early practice (please see end notes). LDS creation stories, he assured me, are even more numerous, and just as bizarre, as those of Islam. While he conceded that Mormonism had only three heavens instead of seven, it did teach that God lived on a planet close to a star called Kolob. He dubbed this the “Kolob cosmology” (perhaps a slight mischaracterization on his part).

His claim that there are more different creation stories in Mormonism than in Islam sent me scrambling to the Mormon scriptures. It was worse than he had indicated. Found among the standard works of the Church, the temple endowment rituals, and the writings of the prophet Brigham Young, are no less than six different versions of the creation story, four of them authored by either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. (Acceptance of all versions as being true is a good example of magical thinking.)

Our discussions turned to ways in which the practice of religion can lead to the needless death of innocents. One such incident that had clearly affected him was the death of an intelligent and attractive Saudi nursing student he once met in London. She was later the victim of an honor killing at the hands of her male relatives. Bound with heavy chains by her father and older brothers, she was thrown into the deep end of the family swimming pool. As is often the case in these private family matters, my friend was never able to learn what her supposed Haram offense had been. I related to him the story of Christine Jonson (please see end notes).

Then more questions. Was the murder of Christine’s children the act of a mentally unstable criminal? Or was it the ultimate Christ-like sacrifice of a courageous and loving mother undertaken to save the souls of precious children? Did the teachings and scriptures of the Mormon Church lead this woman to kill her two children? There is no doubt that the Islamic Koran, or Hadith, or tradition (or all three) gave the Muslim father of the Saudi girl the right to kill his daughter for dishonoring the family. Depending on what scripture was used and how it was interpreted, the Islamic religion could have even required that he kill her. But was it morally right for him to do so?

No sane person could honestly claim that any of these killings were morally justified. One can only conclude that unfounded religious beliefs were enabling, or more than enabling, in both cases. These murders were easily rationalized based on Holy scripture, as interpreted by reasonable people, in the latter part of the 20th century. Two of the murders were justified by Mormon scripture and teachings. (For those Mormons who might disagree with this assertion, I would refer you to the passages in the “Miracle of Forgiveness” and in other writings and pronouncements of Mormon Prophets referring to the doctrine that, given the choice, a person is better off to be innocent and dead than to be alive and morally unclean.)

For readers who feel that the Christine Jonson narrative represents an unfair interpretation of Mormon beliefs, please put yourself in her position. You truly believe that you are condemned to outer darkness, and that if you continue to raise your children, they would almost certainly grow up to meet with the same fate. On the other hand, you truly believe that your children would go to the Celestial Kingdom if they were to die before the age of eight. Knowing how glorious the Celestial Kingdom will be, why would you not do for your innocent children what Christine did to save hers? Like it or not, in light of the unfounded beliefs that comprise Mormon teachings in this regard, Christine’s actions made perfect sense.

To those who would say that no sane person would people kill their children, and so there must have been something wrong with the way Christine Jonson and the Saudi Muslim father were thinking, the correct one-word response would be; “Exactly”.

My Muslim friend and I discussed aspects of both religions that we admired, did not understand, and wished could be changed. One difference we both recognized is that it was possible for a Mormon to proclaim disbelief in Mormonism and still live safely in the US. For many Muslims, on the other hand, open apostasy from Islam can make it extremely hazardous to continue living in their home country (and in the case of well-known apostates like Salman Rushdie, anywhere else).

At some point, we tried to determine an overall winner of our debates. Criteria such as “by their fruits ye shall know them”, as well as elementary logic and attempts at scoring were applied. By these criteria, no clear winner emerged. Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, and their associated scriptures, appeared just as ridiculous to my friend’s mind as the Koran, the Hedith, and Islam appeared to mine. I could only conclude that both my Muslim friend and I were absolutely correct in our general propositions concerning the religion of the other.

The Risks of Unfounded Beliefs

Unfounded beliefs of Catholics, acting in accordance with Leviticus and pronouncements from the Pope, resulted in the unimaginably cruel and painful deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children during the inquisitions. Unfounded beliefs of 19 faithful Muslims, acting according to reasonable interpretations of Islamic Holy Scriptures, led to the death of thousands of innocent people on September 11, 2001.

The tragic reality of innocent victims from actions based on religious dogma, and enabled by magical thinking, extends through recorded history and continues today. Unfounded beliefs of “Christian Science” adherents, based on the teachings of Mary Baker Eddy, cause them to withhold needed medical treatment in favor of prayer, leading to needless mortality and morbidity among themselves and their innocent children. Unfounded beliefs of older Fundamentalist LDS men (who should know better) justify their statutory rape of teenage girls in the name of their religion.

David Koresh at Waco, Jim Jones at Jonestown, and Marshall Applewhite of Heaven’s Gate in San Diego are but a few of the religious “true believers” who have killed themselves, along with hundreds of gullible and innocent people, because of their unfounded beliefs. But all that has gone before in this regard pales in comparison to that which may yet come.

Armageddon and Magical Thinking

Some of the most dangerous magical thinking imaginable is the widely held belief among many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians that the world as we know it will end in the great battle of Armageddon. Some versions of this myth claim that the earth must thereafter be cleansed by fire before the second coming of Christ. Chillingly analogous scenarios are also central to Islamic “end of the world” myths. Teachings of Mormonism concerning the return of Christ and the ushering in of the millennium have much in common with these evangelical fundamentalist “end of days” and rapture beliefs, and include the cleansing by fire aspect.

Humankind is now faced with the situation wherein two of the great cultures on our planet, Islam and the Western democracies, stand bitterly opposed based on worldview, politics, and religion. (Fortunately, there remains some common economic interest between the two.) Both sides possess nuclear weapons, and at the time of this writing, certain militant leaders on both sides profess belief in the concept of a final decisive battle between the people of God and the enemies of God. Each is certain that they are “the people of God” and that with the help of their God, they would prevail in such a battle. Anyone who is not extremely concerned by this state of affairs does not understand the problem. (Although, I suppose that if one “knew” for a certainty that their side would prevail in the battle, and believed that they themselves would be taken up in the rapture before being consumed by fire, they might be a little more sanguine about this situation than I am.)

Along with many other secularists, I have been very uncomfortable over the last eight years in having the US nuclear weapons release codes in the hands of a President who looks forward to the second coming, and understands (perhaps barely) enough about nuclear weapons to know that they are the best source of globe-cleansing fire available. The potential for innocent victims from the self-fulfillment of such prophesies, due in no small part to unfounded belief and failure to recognize facts, is unimaginable.

In this regard, I believe that one of the greatest dangers now facing us is the potential for unfounded religious belief to lead to “nuclear jihad”. As one who has lived and worked in the Middle East and has also worked in national security (please see end notes), I can assure the reader that some form of nuclear jihad remains a real and growing threat. If and when it happens, you can rest assured that those responsible for the resulting loss of life, destruction of property, and near permanent damage to the environment will perpetrate this evil with full certainty that they are doing the will of their God.

Mormonism and Intellectual Honesty

In contrast to the 19th century when the Mormon Church was founded, one no longer need look to myth or unfounded beliefs in an attempt to understand how the universe operates. In an age of abundant scientific knowledge there is reproducible physical evidence, on which all can agree, regarding how things work. In such a time as this, science-based knowledge and intellectual honesty must trump religious faith in forming a worldview.

Unfortunately, more than in any other Christian denomination I know of, I believe it is impossible to be college educated, intellectually honest and remain a true believing Mormon. The inconsistencies, anachronisms, lack of supporting physical evidence, misrepresentations, alterations, revisions, unacknowledged plagiarism, and sequestered historical documents associated with the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, Doctrine and Covenants, and many revelations and pronouncements by Church leaders are nothing short of are staggering. The consequent empty denials and “alternative theories” on the part of Mormon apologists in this regard only make the situation worse.

One who claims to be intellectually honest cannot simply ignore the historical facts and scientific evidence as to invalidity of these books. An educated person understands (or should understand) the principles of falsifiability in determining the validity of a proposition or hypothesis. They should understand the use of Occam’s razor criteria for selecting the best among possible equally plausible hypotheses (please sees end notes). The general hypothesis that these books are the true word of God cannot be falsified because God is not available to confirm or deny the assertion. Such a hypothesis is therefore not scientifically valid.

On the other hand, there is abundant falsifiable evidence that the books are fraudulent. This evidence is valid, reproducible, and has not been shown to be false by appropriate experiment or observation. By these well accepted scientific and logical criteria for determining the validity and truth of a proposition, the hypothesis that these books are as claimed by Joseph Smith can only be rejected (please see end notes).

Much of the direct evidence for factual invalidity in the Judeo-Christian and Muslim scriptures is lost in antiquity. In contrast, abundant evidence that unquestionably invalidates the claims of Joseph Smith and other early Church leaders regarding the Mormon scriptures is currently available for all to see. One only need ask the questions and do the research. While application of Occam’s razor may be helpful in making the final judgment, simple use of simple falsifiability criteria should be more than sufficient (please see end notes).

Mormon Families of Secularists

My wife and I are both lifelong members of the Church. We were married in the Temple and brought three great sons and three lovely daughters into the world. We supported all three sons on missions and sent two of the daughters to BYU. The other four kids graduated from the University of Washington with the boys all earning M.D. or Ph.D. degrees. All have been married in the Temple. For any apologists, or for others who may be interested, additional biographical information is included in the end notes.

My family and I have and have benefited from our membership the Mormon Church. We have also given back to the Church in terms of time, tithing and financial support of missionaries. Whether or not this has been a fair exchange is yet to be determined. Basic principles of ethics, morality and the recognized value of education, as practiced in most of the wards we have attended, have helped me and my wife to raise generally well adjusted, successful, and happy offspring. For the most part, these principles continue to guide the lives of our children and grandchildren. However, these ethical and moral principles are not exclusive to the Mormon Church. They are a product of the advance of civilized society as a whole. In fact on many ethical and moral issues, including those related to woman’s rights and racism, the Church has lagged far behind in recent years.

A Secular Worldview

With age, accumulated knowledge, and a little wisdom, the real work of maintaining the cognitive dissonance of science and Mormon magical thinking has become too much. At some point, one must emerge from the environment of myth and superstition. The alternative is to adopt, develop and profess a rational, logical, fact-based worldview.

Such a secular, fact-based and rational approach to decision making can be counted on to provide the best answers available. This kind of a worldview progresses and improves along with the advances of society in science, art and culture. In contrast, the Mormon magical thinking worldview remains mired in the 19th century. It discourages curiosity, emphasizes ecclesiastical authority, and moves forward at a glacial pace and with great dislocation and distress to its most faithful adherents when changes do come.

I now attend church only on special occasions and at the express request of my wife or children. As a scientist, and as one who has read in the areas of comparative religion and secular histories of the early Mormon Church, it is now extremely difficult to sit through Sunday school or sacrament meeting. The oft repeated myths, misunderstanding and blatant misinformation about known facts and how the world works that one encounters in these meetings now make me very uncomfortable. They also give cause for concern about what my grandchildren are learning in Church.

Out of respect for my active parents, wife, children and grandchildren, I have not requested that my name be removed from the records of the Church. Nonetheless, while I have no desire to hurt my parents and other active family members by resigning, I do have a responsibility to my wife and children, and eventually perhaps to my grandchildren, to let them know what I have learned about science and religion.

I see it as an obligation to explain to them the concept of magical thinking and warn them about the sometimes horrific consequences of acting on belief without evidence. They must understand, as I do, that morality, ethics and an abundant life do not depend on religion. There is an undeniable sense of freedom and a widening of horizons that comes from shedding Mormonism and, I suppose, theistic religion in general.

The Rational Path Forward

As I look down the road, and especially to the future of my children and their children, there is cause for concern. In this age of rapidly expanding mass communication, a global economy, and spreading weapons of mass destruction capability, much depends on the ability of society to recognize, understand, and control magical thinking.

As we have seen over the last eight years, magical thinking (or the failure to think at all) by our national leaders can have dire consequences on the world economy, in the way in which our nation perceives itself, and on our national security. Like many in America and elsewhere, I believe that we have come to a nadir in American history. Unfounded beliefs on the part our leaders and the leaders of our emerging adversaries have been largely responsible.

The clock is ticking. We must realize that the world will not be saved by a messiah. The world will progress, as it always has, by the combined efforts of men and women with a rational and pragmatic approach to leadership and decision making. To be successful, their deliberations and judgment must not impaired by superstition and magical thinking. Considering the increasing availability of advanced weapons to magical thinkers who would misuse them without a second thought, not only is the clock ticking, but the stakes grow higher with each passing day.


TOPICS: Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: beck; deceivedordeceiver; fanatics; glennbeck; glennebck; goldplates; inman; lds; liars; mormon; mormonism; sorcerers; vipers
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To: Paragon Defender; colorcountry; SZonian; Utah Binger; reaganaut
As an ex-Mormon basher,

We ex-mormons appreciate your confession. Thanks.

81 posted on 07/21/2010 7:12:44 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (If voters follow the democrat method of 2004 Obama will be named the worst president in history.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Good one, now he is just a current Christian basher.


82 posted on 07/21/2010 7:20:24 AM PDT by svcw (True freedom cannot be granted by any man or government, only by Christ.)
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To: greyfoxx39; Paragon Defender

Gosh Paragon, I didn’t even realize you WERE an ex-Mormon. Welcome to the club. By my count there are at least 25 of us here on FR, and probably more.

There are as many ex-Mormons or inactive Mormons in the world as active Mormons.

Hooray for OUR rights!


83 posted on 07/21/2010 7:21:20 AM PDT by colorcountry ("Showing mercy to the wolves is showing cruelty to the sheep." - Unknown)
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To: colorcountry; Paragon Defender
Gosh Paragon, I didn’t even realize you WERE an ex-Mormon.

I thought he was confessing to "bashing ex-mormons", which is quite accurate.

84 posted on 07/21/2010 7:30:15 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (If voters follow the democrat method of 2004 Obama will be named the worst president in history.)
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To: greyfoxx39

I suppose you could take his confession in a number of different ways. lol :)


85 posted on 07/21/2010 7:40:51 AM PDT by colorcountry ("Showing mercy to the wolves is showing cruelty to the sheep." - Unknown)
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To: Paragon Defender; All
Yes, by all mean people, please, please doyour research before getting involved with this cult. It looks pretty on the outside but inside is rotten and putrified.

Fortunately, there are few paces they can hide. If you're savvy enough to be on FR, you are savvy enought to do some poking around, pro and con.

86 posted on 07/21/2010 7:59:19 AM PDT by T Minus Four ("All religion ever made of me was a sinner with a rock tied to my feet" - FFH)
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To: Normandy

I see. So you are leaning on your own understanding. Good plan.


87 posted on 07/21/2010 8:01:25 AM PDT by T Minus Four ("All religion ever made of me was a sinner with a rock tied to my feet" - FFH)
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To: SZonian

My post is to the readers, not to the anti-Mormon attack squad that lives here.

All of your “material” has been addressed in the links provided.

I never said my links were unbiased. The spew put forth on these boards daily by the regular anti-Mormon attack squad is hard unbiased.

I invite folks to look at both sides and make up their own mind. You afraid they might see through the anti propaganda?


88 posted on 07/21/2010 9:06:50 AM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: greyfoxx39

As an ex-Mormon basher,

We ex-mormons appreciate your confession. Thanks


Golly did you get me in a grammatical error?

Ex Mormon-basher better for you? You knew exactly what I meant. Grasping a bit eh?


89 posted on 07/21/2010 9:08:50 AM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender
You afraid they might see through the anti propaganda?

No, readers will see the ant-Christian bashing that goes on on lds sites. PD you still have not addressed the fact that what is posted is from lds sites.

90 posted on 07/21/2010 9:14:38 AM PDT by svcw (True freedom cannot be granted by any man or government, only by Christ.)
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To: Paragon Defender
You knew

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

91 posted on 07/21/2010 9:16:26 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Paragon Defender

When have I ever taken the approach you have PD?

The approach of deflecting, avoiding, obfuscation, maligning FReepers by implying they are liars?

You are the one who is “afraid”. Trying to take the moral highground again? Your posting history tells any all they need to know about your intentions.

My “material” as you called it, is my opinion and my experiences. You want to call that “propaganda”? You go right ahead. Your “point” will not be missed by rational people.

Your “invitation”, IMO, is disingenous. You have been/are free to correct any perceived falsehood, misrepresentation or, lies as you so amateurishly attempt to allude to in order to counter the so-called “bias”.

So far, crickets.


92 posted on 07/21/2010 9:26:17 AM PDT by SZonian (We began as a REPUBLIC, a nation of laws. We became a DEMOCRACY, majority rules. Next step is?)
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To: Paragon Defender
Ex Mormon-basher better for you? You knew exactly what I meant. Grasping a bit eh?

Mind-reading a bit?

93 posted on 07/21/2010 9:27:46 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Rush "They hate me because I am the most prominent, effective and unrelenting voice of conservatism")
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To: Paragon Defender
Oh, btw...

"My post is to the readers, not to the anti-Mormon attack squad that lives here."

If you're not wanting a reply from one of "anti-mormon attack squad" as you so generously call us, don't ping me and post that which you call an "invitation".

94 posted on 07/21/2010 9:31:11 AM PDT by SZonian (We began as a REPUBLIC, a nation of laws. We became a DEMOCRACY, majority rules. Next step is?)
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To: Religion Moderator

Sorry, I didn’t see your post before replying in #93. Thanks for being on the ball.


95 posted on 07/21/2010 9:35:21 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Rush "They hate me because I am the most prominent, effective and unrelenting voice of conservatism")
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To: Paragon Defender
Does this look familiar? You must have missed where I actually agreed with you PD. Except, I encouraged those same folks to be wary and to seek counsel when they "investigate" the "propaganda".

As for your claims that there is a "vast amount of misrepresentation, twisting and lies spewed forth..." on these boards, prove it. Calling people liars is quite easy, proving it is another.

For the lurkers, by all means, "DO read this stuff" (mormonism) and then sit with your pastor, preacher, etc. and discuss what you have read with them and have them show you the "Truth". I, and a few others on this board have escaped mormonism. If you can find where we have been "misrepresenting", "twisting" or "lying" about our experiences, just ask one of us and we'll gladly answer your questions.

96 posted on 07/21/2010 9:40:57 AM PDT by SZonian (We began as a REPUBLIC, a nation of laws. We became a DEMOCRACY, majority rules. Next step is?)
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To: Paragon Defender
You're an Ex-Mormon basher?????

Wow..little miss, you are one messed up FReeper.

Ha!

97 posted on 07/21/2010 9:48:24 AM PDT by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: Normandy
Normandy....I know for myself, from personal experience that mormonism is wrong.

I pray that you too...figure that out.

98 posted on 07/21/2010 9:52:04 AM PDT by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: svcw
Good one, now he is just a current Christian basher.

But the EVIDENCE on these threads shows he bashes ex-mormons as well!

(The ones NOW filled with the Spirit who WARN other CURRENT Mormons of impending doom; anyway...)

99 posted on 07/21/2010 10:24:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry

You gotta watch yer punctuation!!


100 posted on 07/21/2010 10:26:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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