Posted on 07/13/2010 10:43:45 AM PDT by Colofornian
MONTREAL The handful of Mormons who continue to baptize Jews posthumously are violating church policy, says a senior member of the Utah-based religious movement.
Rabbi Schachar Orenstein, centre, spoke at a Mormon temple along with Mormon leader Mark Paredes of Los Angeles, left. At right is George Eric Jarvis, president of the Mormon churchs Mount Royal Stake, or Montreal branch.
Mark Paredes, who sits on the Mormons High Council in Santa Monica, Calif., and speaks for the church on Mormon-Jewish relations, was guest speaker along with Rabbi Schachar Orenstein of the Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue at what is described as the first ever formal dialogue between Quebec Jewish Congress (QJC) and the Mormon church in this province. The June 27 event was held before close to 400 people at the Mormon temple in Notre-Dame-de-Grâce.
There are about 9,000 Mormons in Quebec.
Paredes said there is 99.99 per cent compliance today with the 1995 memorandum of understanding that was signed between the Mormons, formally the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Jewish leaders.
A few years earlier, it had come to light that some Mormons Paredes says it was only eight had submitted the names of tens of thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims for what Mormons call proxy immersions for the dead.
The former U.S. foreign service officer made the comments as part of his lengthy address on Mormons strong support for Judaism and Israel, titled The Common Threads of Judaism and Mormonism, or Mormons and Jews in the Last Days: A Zion Relationship.
Paredes, who until recently was the executive director of the Zionist Organization of Americas western region, said, No one thinks that more than a handful of Mormons, out of nearly 14 million [worldwide] continue to defy the churchs policy [on proxy immersions].
The only instance where the church sanctions such activity is if a Jew was an ancestor of a Mormon, he added. Paredes explained that Mormons are required to research their own ancestors and, if they had not accepted the Mormon faith, perform temple ordinances for them that will allow them to do so in the after-life. However, these ordinances do not confer church membership, he said.
They were never permitted to do this for anyone elses ancestors, he stressed.
However, Paredes continued, it is highly inaccurate to refer to proxy immersions as posthumous conversions, making Mormons of the dead, etc.
Mormons agree with Jews that Holocaust victims should not have temple ordinances performed for them, except in rare cases where a victim is the direct ancestor of a living Mormon, he said. Jews who are concerned about this issue are entitled to an explanation and, having visited Auschwitz last fall, I am very much of this opinion, and we do our best to provide one.
Paredes, who was also the American Jewish Congresss national director of Hispanic community outreach and a press attaché at the Israeli consulate in Los Angeles, said he doesnt believe that the strong historic ties between Mormons and Jews has been harmed by this issue.
He also reassured Jews that the Mormons are not seeking to convert Jews. Although proselytizing is a central aspect of the religion and all young men serve as missionaries, they are not targeting Jews, or members of other religions, for conversion, he said. If our missionaries knock on a Jews door, theyll also knock on the doors of his Catholic neighbour, Baptist friend and atheist cousin.
Rabbi Orenstein also spoke on the commonality of the two religions, although he admitted his knowledge of Mormonism was not as great as Paredes of Judaism.
Paredes distanced Mormonism from Christian anti-Jewish beliefs.
I am proud to state that our church has no history of anti-Semitism. In fact, we have a history of being pro-Semitic, philo-Semitic, of actively helping, not just tolerating, Jews in our midst.
Mormons believe they are members of the House of Israel, feel a strong affinity with the Jewish people, and their theology and ritual have parallels with ancient Judaism. Latter-day Saints are modern-day Israelites who build temples, have the priesthood, and receive revelation from prophets, he said.
Mormons, like Jews, have known persecution throughout their history, since being founded in the United States in 1830, he went on.
The church is Zionist and has called for the gathering of the Jews in Palestine with their own political state since its founding.
In Los Angeles, Mormon-Jewish relations are especially strong, he said. Paredes recently took five rabbis to Utah and, for the past three years a Mormon has hosted the annual Israel Festival, for example.
Paredes employment in the Jewish community or Israeli-based organizations is not that unusual for Mormons in Los Angeles, home to 600,000 Jews. They work or have worked at the Jewish Federation, Magen David Adom, several synagogues and an Orthodox day school, he said.
Rabbi Orenstein touched on Mormons and Jews shared texts and vocabulary.
We both speak of prophets and redemption and revelation. The definitions may vary, but it is a frame of reference for engagement, he said.
Abby Shawn, chair of QJCs human rights committee, said the meeting was at the initiative of the Mormon community and she welcomed the overture. It went really, really well. They were receptive, inquisitive and highly sensitized, she said. The Mormons arranged to have kosher food served afterward.
Shawn and Rabbi Orenstein appreciated Paradess candour in addressing the baptism and missionizing issues.
I see this as the first step to building a bridge. I hope there will be a follow-up in the future, Shawn said.
You know, I got to thinking about this more and though its funny at first how sad. Why? Cause to the Mormon tithing is an absolute law!
If you look at Lds.org like I did -- every single entry they have for carrying out their various add-on "Laws" -- guess what two add-on "laws" get the most mentions by Lds, Inc?
It's near a tie:
(1) The Law of Tithing
(2) The Law of Chastity
That's interesting, too...'cause you would think that based upon what Joseph Smith said, the Law of Baptizing dead people would be #1. But it's not stressed more than the above (& doesn't rank above many other Mormon "laws").
Joseph Smith: The GREATEST RESPONSIBILITY IN THIS WORLD that God has placed upon us is to seek after our dead. (Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 356)
Mormons are you obeying this? Are you doing three-year missions to the dead to outdo your two- year missions to the living?
If I was a gambling man, I could probably wage a million $ that not a single Mormon could name EVERY law mentioned by Lds general authorities on Lds.org. [What a crying shame, 'cause even Joseph Smith said: We cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received.(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 256.)]
And Mormons are shooting for the highest degree by way of perfect obedience??????
For the Christian, do we follow a "law" of tithing?
No. Giving is an inside-out thing, done from the heart, encouraged by God as part of being godly. Mormons? They make it an outside-in, imposed upon from without -- or you're out (of the temple, that is). No chance for special "callings" in the church; don't get to see your son or daughter married in the temple. No "forever family." No living with Heavenly Father forever. You could pay 9.99% of your income, and still be disqualified from all the above...because you broke their man-made "law."
BTW...the Mormon "law of chastity" does the same thing as the Mormon "law of tithing": It attempts to impose a man-made law from the outside-in. Now am I saying singles should not be chaste and marrieds should not remain faithful to their spouse? Not at all; of course we exercise self-control. But Jesus said no matter whether you engage in physical adultery, God looks at the heart...and if you lust, you have already broken any boundary of heart purity/chasteness.
Mormons (and many Christian church members, too) consistently want to measure things by external appearances. God already knows our hearts perfectly. We can't change His omniscience and omnipresence. That's why Jesus complimented the Pharisees on their outward righteousness and condemned them on their inward tombstone-like lives.
Too many Mormons and even members of Christian churches compare out their outward religious lives to the rest of the world, and think they are way out front of the race to heaven.
But God doesn't judge us that way.
It's pass or fail. (James says if we stumble at only one part of the Law, we have broken ALL of it -- James 2:10).
It's inside and outside.
It's internal and external.
All: Stay away from such religious legalism as mentioned above; and, if you're already entrapped in it, run away. Jesus condemned it for a very good reason!
Yet they consider Jews to be gentiles.
What Christian or group of Christians have "anti Jewish beliefs"?
Is the author talking about the Christian belief that Jesus is the Messiah? If so, do not the Mormons believe the same? If not, why do they, of late, insist on saying their cult is Christian?
Baptizing deceased Jews against Mormon policy:
____________________________________________
ROFLMBO
Then why do the mormons do it ???
Yup. I don't think there's a Judeo-Christian word or concept Mormonism doesn't distort, turn upside down, or bend beyond recognition.
Another example: Christians are "apostates" per Mormonism.
Joseph F. Smith, Smith said:
Not a soul that has ever lived and died from off the face of this earth shall escape a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.
________________________________________
Well good luck with that little fantasy
That would be "Jews for Joseph" ;-)
Excellent phrasing, Vendome...a very good way to approach this.
Let me provide you with three examples as to how Mormons have "appended...[the] life history" of numerous individuals:
Did you know that -- per Mormonism "sealing" records (rituals performed in the Mormon temple) -- that:
(a) Jesus is now "married"/sealed to Mary Magdalene, per our zealous Mormon match-makers?
(b) And Father Damien, a RC priest, was also posthumously "sealed" so that he, too, is now "married"
(c) And a fundamentalist Mormon killer who was divorced was posthumously "re-married" to his ex-spouse.
Documentation for all of these Mormon "religious" acts follow, if you care to take the time to read them.
From article documenting (a) above: On May 27, 2010, Maria Magdelena was listed in New FamilySearch with her birth date as 1504 Israel, and death date as before 1540 Israel. Both years are likely inventions. Along with spouse Jesus Cristian, Maria Magdelena was baptized and confirmed a member of the LDS Church by proxy on April 8, 2010 in the Salt Lake City Utah Temple. She was subjected to initiatory temple ordinances on April 8, 2010; an endowment ceremony on April 9, 2010; and the marriage sealing to Jesus Cristian on April 9, 2010all rites were done in the Salt Lake City Utah Temple. Mary Magdalene is described in the New Testament as a faithful follower of Jesus. Because the concept of marriage is strongly emphasized in LDS teachings, the notion that a spousal relationship existed between Jesus and Mary Magdalene is common among Mormonsalthough that belief is not formal LDS doctrine. There is no reliable historical evidence to indicate that Jesus was marriedto Mary Magdalene, or anyone else. Source: Jesus Christ was baptized and sealed to Mary Magdalene
From column documenting (b) above: "It's blatantly wrong to seal a person who took a vow of celibacy as a Catholic priest and is so revered in his Catholic religion," said Radkey, a former Catholic. Source: Helen Radkey and Salt Lake Tribune strike again
Why is the Lds church playing "matchmaker" post-death with single RC priests? Answer: Lds say single people are shut out of the highest degree of glory in heaven. Therefore, if Father Damien was going to get there, they had to find a way to marry him off -- in the nether world!
This whole religious shenanigans brought this out in a Yahoo Question: Mormons "marry" dead Catholic priest posthumously to a woman he likely never was married to in life. Why?
This whole enterprise is a literal Mormon marriage machine for dead spirits...
From the article documenting (c) above: The LDS Church has disowned Mormon fundamentalists. In sharp contradiction, the LDS temple system systematically validates the plural marriages of dead ex-Mormon polygamists through its marriage sealing rituals. An example of many such individuals is Rulon Clark Allred, who was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 1940 for practicing polygamy...As though killers will share an eternal reward with their victims, Ervil Morrell LeBaron the Mormon fundamentalist behind the death of Rulon Allred was sealed by proxy in 2002 to Delfina Salido, from whom he was divorced. Source: Mormon Church Quietly Endorses Polygamous (Afterlife) Marriages of Excommunicated Fundamentalists
We need to understand that Mormons clarify their belief that marriages are forever by saying that applies only to those who reach the highest degree of glory. So Mormons believe murderers need proxy eternal marriage sealings 'cause they represent the highest degree of works-righteousness folks?
That is just sick.
Exactly.
(I'm waiting for entrepreneur types to start opening up "Honeymoon suites for the deceased" just outside of Mormon temples worldwide -- so that these nether world "marriages" can be properly consummated. Hmmm...I wonder what Mormons will start offering themselves as being "available" to perform these acts by proxy? And while some of you might write that off as a crude, insensitive joke, you need to understand that such an extension is no different than the reasons Mormons perform proxy baptisms to begin with...Mormon leaders say these "deceased spirits" need a body to baptized...they have no bodies...thereby bodies from this world are vicariously offered up...well, what about non-Mormons being sealed to a partner post death...what? No consummation for them?)
The Mormons don't have a corner on the entrepreneurial "christian" corniness...
Hey doc, I think this site is run by atheists.
After the party, for my friend, I came away with a sense that many LDS are moving more mainstream and they don’t even recognize some the things we argue against here.
In fact, many were not aware of those viewpoints and called them extreme for their arrogance and not something they identify with.
That is not to say that many are not more fundamental and rigid, but that a good many I talked to wouldn’t agree with the subjects we discuss.
The older generation does but more of the 40 and unders just think some of the early church views go to far and farther than they would support.
It’s Tuesday!
Heart of the Matter Ping!
Understandable - false religions do that - their flock end up with a pick/chose attitude.
An atheist? On a FR religion thread? please; tell me WHY!!
(Other places on the web would call this bi-curious...)
Resty; your input is needed.
That was my initial thought
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.